New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

[Andrew Metford]

We run cars with both Dunlop CR65 and Toyo 888 tyres. They have quite different compound characteristics. The Dunlop has a 204 compound which is medium hard and a durometer test shows the 888 is much softer.

Roger, is the CR65 of today still a bias ply?

[Bailey]

[quote="Howard Wood"]1.

2. Lets look at the available options and costs and the possibility of a control tyre. For example the F5000 class have a control tyre AND a limit of one set of tyre per two meetings.

F5000 do not have a control tyre, but there is really only one compound in the Avon range that suits the majority
of the competitors, therefore everyone uses it. I believe F Atlantic may have a control Avon compound

[Paul Wilkinson]

Being Devil's advocate, what about running other 'period' consumables such as the same spec brake-pads, shocks, clutch plates, brake fluids and oils etc? How about other consumables such as pistons and rings etc that these days are made with improved materials or using improved processes? You'll need to throw a handful of dirt in the gas tank each time you fill up some of the very old cars as period gas was often contaminated - you'd be allowed to filter it through pantyhose before using it though as that is period correct.
Cars are now faster, safer and more reliable than they were back in the day because of a level of pragmatism about these regularly replaced items. When someone like Paddy Hopkirk gets into a 'period' Mini racer and says they never had that much power and were never that quick back in the day, you know we're enjoying the benefits of modern manufacturing. Finally getting to my point, should it be a buffet where you get to pick and choose what gives you an advantage? Or should you appreciate that the rules are there to help aggregate enough cars to make 'racing' feasible?

[RogerH]

Roger, is the CR65 of today still a bias ply?

In reply to both your and Bruce's questions. The CR65 is a ply tyre that we get in a bulk order of around 40 CR65 tyres direct from the UK. With the bulk order and combined freight the price was reasonable - we usually do an order once a season for the guys in our series.
The wear is reasonable and seems a bit better than the Toyos but they do harden off from the initial softness level. The really competitive guys in the UK replace them after 8 heat cycles but we find they are still reasonable after a season.
They are nice tyres to drive on with predictable and gradual loss of grip. There has been a supply problem with the UK production having to close due to health and safety issues but I understand that new production in Portugal is coming on line.

[Spgeti]

In reply to both your and Bruce's questions. The CR65 is a ply tyre that we get in a bulk order of around 40 CR65 tyres direct from the UK. With the bulk order and combined freight the price was reasonable - we usually do an order once a season for the guys in our series.
The wear is reasonable and seems a bit better than the Toyos but they do harden off from the initial softness level. The really competitive guys in the UK replace them after 8 heat cycles but we find they are still reasonable after a season.
They are nice tyres to drive on with predictable and gradual loss of grip. There has been a supply problem with the UK production having to close due to health and safety issues but I understand that new production in Portugal is coming on line.

Thanks Roger, appreciate your input.

[Jac Mac]

[color="#0000FF"]Had a spare 10 minutes in the loft today- Dunlop Racing Slicks ( The ones with only tread depth reference holes- no 'tread' pattern of any description ) saw service for the first time on a Chevron sports/race car driven by Chris Craft ~ July- August 1971 according to an article/photo in SCW Sept 1971.[/color]

[tweaks]

Further to Jac Mac's research I did a quick search and found a MotorSport article which might explain a few things re slicks and dates ...
M & H Drag slicks ( smooth slick surface ) had beed around since early 50's .. while circuit racing tyres Dunlop CR92 had small indentations, birds feet like until 1971

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/july-1999/51/slick-tyre

Cheers
Lyndsay

[Steve Holmes]

1. Obviously the rules including tyre choices must be uniform for all the cars not just a select few. Try turning the argument on it's head: because of the proposed DoT tyre regulation we run the very real possibility of excluding two of the most significant "real" cars which really should be the stars of this class, the AMCO Mini and Haliday Escort (and quite possibly others as well) because of the unavailability of suitable tyres. Therefore what are the reasons for NOT allowing slicks?

Of course, we'd never want to turn cars away for the sake of there not being an available tyre. But you're only referring to DOT tyres here, the T&C and Schedule K rules also allow for treaded vintage bias-ply tyres, of which there is a huge selection available, because of the huge international interest in historic racing. Hoosier produce a Vintage Bias H Tread 165/70x10 tyre specifically for historic racing Minis, Elfs, Imps etc:

http://www.minimania.com/part/HOOSIER-10/165-X-70-X-10-Hoosier-Race-Tires

These are available from Cardwell Racing Supplies. They're a proper vintage racing tyre, available all year round. Bruce Dyer has contacted Cardwells re supply, and they can have them in 6 weeks.

If there are cars that genuinely don't have a suitable tyre available within the rules, then of course this has to be looked at on a car by car basis.

[Spgeti]

Being Devil's advocate, what about running other 'period' consumables such as the same spec brake-pads, shocks, clutch plates, brake fluids and oils etc? How about other consumables such as pistons and rings etc that these days are made with improved materials or using improved processes? You'll need to throw a handful of dirt in the gas tank each time you fill up some of the very old cars as period gas was often contaminated - you'd be allowed to filter it through pantyhose before using it though as that is period correct.
Cars are now faster, safer and more reliable than they were back in the day because of a level of pragmatism about these regularly replaced items. When someone like Paddy Hopkirk gets into a 'period' Mini racer and says they never had that much power and were never that quick back in the day, you know we're enjoying the benefits of modern manufacturing. Finally getting to my point, should it be a buffet where you get to pick and choose what gives you an advantage? Or should you appreciate that the rules are there to help aggregate enough cars to make 'racing' feasible?

Hi Paul....yes I have been in touch with Smash Palace and they do have supplies of period water, oil, brake fluid, fuel etc but I doubt that we would want to use it.....

In the 1970s when we drag raced the HO and Z/28s we use to fill up with Avgas from Pokeno but alas the service station has well gone.
Oh the days of when you could drive onto the runway and fill up the Camaro at Milson Airport...no chance of that today.

The objective is to follow the T&C and Schedule K rules as per the Historic Racing in Appendix 6 along with the spirit of Historic Racing which is covered in Appendix 6. There will always be resistance from some and we expect that and there will always be some that fall out of those regulation and we understand that.

Dale, Steve and Tony started HMC which is a credit to their passion and now it is time to give direction and a class for those that want to be part of HSC in pre 78 Saloon Car Racing which will include those with Historic Saloon Cars that ran in the era.

Building a grid will take time but we have to date had positive interest outside of the Roaring Season as well.

Cheers

[AMCO72]

OK, just tidying up a few loose ends here, then thats it as far as I am concerned. I wrote in post 74 that I was going to contact Dave Panckhurst to see if he remembered the tyres that the Amco Mini was on in 1971 to 1973. I actually ended up speaking with 4 ex drivers/owners so got a good picture. I am quoting what they said on here and you can take it or leave it.......makes no difference to me......

1. Dave Panckhurst.......is too long ago for him to remember exactly, but he knew they had CR65's as wets. He conntacted Rod Collingwood to see if his memory was any better......

2. Rod Collingwood........quote.....Hi Dave, yes we definately ran on slicks [both seasons] The tyres had small indentations running round the tyre to establish tread depth. You are also correct in that we had some narrower rims with CR65 pattern tread for wets.....the old 'slub' pattern like the Formula Fords ran before the new semi-slick they have now. You can Google Mini Race Tyres 1970 to 1973 to see what was available in that era.

3...Tony Mann....owner and restorer of the ex Jim Richards Sidchrome Imp. Tony sent me a photo taken on Jim Richards parents drive in late 69/70 before the BNSW championship. Shows a very wide treaded tyre of unknown pattern. Tony has a similar problem to us in that he has to get approval to run on slicks, as the Imp used these also back in the day. Tony does actually have his slicks grooved as often happened in the early days of slick use. Apparently drivers were a bit hesitant about using tyres with no tread so grooving was common.

4...Reg Cook.....a legend in himself. I phoned Reg and had a long talk. He was one of the participants in the BNSW series and amongst a lot of other stuff, he told me that they used CR65's CR82's and slicks, sometimes grooved.

So there you are. It is a long time ago and peoples memory plays tricks on them, but I think that is a fair cross section of people who should know what they are talking about.

Of course non of the above is worth the paper it is written on, as the organisers will draw up a set of rules and regulations to suit the class and people will fall in line or not as the case may be.

I can only quote what Paul Wilkinson wrote in post 82........'we should appreciate that the rules are there to help aggregate enough cars to make racing feasible..........

The end !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve Holmes]

Hi Gerald, thanks for taking the time and effort to do this. Its much appreciated.

What are your thoughts on the tyre mentioned in post #87 above? Have you ever raced on this tyre?

[AMCO72]

Cant comment on the Hoosiers with tread.......have used the Hoosier slick. You would have to ask someone who knew how to drive, not a broken down old dairy farmer.!!!!!! What I do know is that they loose air fairly quickly when not being used.......as if thats important !!!!!

It was while I was thinking about slicks etc, that an incident came to mind that happened a long time ago. We were with the Amco Mini at Whenuapai in 1989 for a classic meeting, and Paul Adams turned up with a Lotus Cortina.......cant remember whether it was a Mk1 or 2......very nice. Anyway Paul presented the car at scrutineering and was told he couldnt run with the tyres that were on the car.......yes, you guessed it.... slicks. There was a hell of a rumpus with lots of shouting, and the outcome was that Paul loaded the car back on the trailer and drove off.........just saying.

[Kiwiboss]

From the Muscle Car Masters on the weekend, for those of you that don't understand this is a CAMS Historic Nb class Mini in Australia.

[Spgeti]

They look the part Dale. I have ordered them for my Alfa 105 and will use the same on my Elf.

[Spgeti]

Hi Guy's,

I am coming up to the Ice Breaker Meeting this afternoon and will be there all Saturday. If want to catch up with me to put a face to name that would be great.

I will be there from 9.30am onwards and around the HMC/HSC group.

Looking forward to meeting some of you.

Cheers,

Bruce D

[Spgeti]

Ice Breaker....sunny but that wind cut you in half.

I have been up from the sunny Manawatu 3 times this year. To The Festival in January to crew for the Alfa Montreal and catch up with a long lost friend after 37 years away, The Legends meeting to meet and greet the HMC guy's and The Ice Breaker to get to know more off you and to say hello to a few old Trofeo friends.

I enjoyed the Saturday and met and spoke to a lot of very nice people.

The only race I watched was the HMC/HSC and even if the numbers were down they put on a great show.
Roger Williams Camaro just screamed, Dale had a good dice with Bob Hyslop's Mazda RX2 in the PDL Mustang replica and the rest just had a ball even if the field was small. Gary broke the XA Coupe and John decided it was time to bring the snags out for a BBQ with a rear brake fire......

I want to thank the guy's that turned up and raced.
Bob Hyslop in his historic Mazda RX2. a car that he has owned since 1974 and raced and rallied years ago.
John Sampson in his beautiful Ford Capri RS2600 and also Dennis O'Connell in his Mk 1 ford Escort Lotus TC. Both these guys did double duty racing on the weekend.

Not the best of turn outs this weekend but lets move forward and look towards the October meeting and come on guy's lets get the cars out of the sheds for this one and give the big boys a run for their money.

Cheers,
Bruce

[ERC]

Just to add to that, John Dennehy (Halliday Escort) heard Friday that numbers were low and elected to run with the ERC rather than not race at all on Sunday. He missed Saturday. He also had a ball and made a point of saying afterwards that he thoroughly enjoyed the two handicaps and was most impressed with the driving standards, even though we'd combined our two speed groups.

Sorry I missed you Bruce, but totally agree about the cutting wind. I went for a hike around turn 1 and nearly lost my wig!

Sunday was cooler still and we had a shower of rain just before lunch. Won't be at the October meeting (nor will our group) so look forward to hearing about it on here, as your numbers may be enhanced as there won't be any opportunity for double duty.

[AMCO72]

Were there any complaints from competitors in AES/Arrows regarding the Haliday Escort's tyre choice. I will bet he got a stiff handicap......as he should have, and as the Mini would expect to. Those handicap races ALWAYS turn out to be the best, and I have seen some amazing drives from the handicap system, with Guys coming through the field from the back giving it everything. The thing I like about it is that avoids that first lap melee where most of the damage occurs. When will other classes see the light?

[ERC]

Yes, John was on slicks, but as I had no history to handicap him for race one, he had a slightly soft handicap! Race 2, he had a handicap that was correct ACCORDING TO HIS LAP TIME - which as far as I am concerned is correct, regardless of tyre choice. But, as he did well in race one, he was pushed back a little, but still finished 4th, lapping in 1:18, compared to the fastest car on 1:13.

No complaints AMCO... John is a vastly experienced competitor, a clean driver and as I said to him at the end of our racing, I set far more store by the drivers' attitude than the 100% legality of the car. The cars may be the stars, but give me (and most other drivers I suspect) the choice of racing pure cars with wild drivers or wild cars driven by pure drivers(!), the latter preference every time - and some people need to understand that is what drives our philosophy.

[John McKechnie]

Mustang replica and the rest just had a ball even if the field was small. Gary broke the XA Coupe and John decided it was time to bring the snags out for a BBQ with a rear brake fire......

Just like to confirm that the fastest lap in HMC was the Fire Rescue racing to give me the news- thanks guys for your prompt attention.
Unforgettable sight- Seeing Fire Rescue and Nigel McDonald side by side into the last corner and me thinking...didnt see him on the startline.