NEW CLASS / SERIES; Historic Sports Sedans. formation meeting.20/04/13 ACC

[AMCO72]

Now that is one sharp looking car. We have another one in NZ, imported by Fogg Motorsport last year, that is how shall we say, a bit rougher than that one. I am not sure of its history, if indeed it has any, but if the owner can drag himself away from fixing dodgy Jags and crashed Minis, we might see it out and about one day.

The term by the way is......'a bucket of bolts', and being kind, that is how I would describe it at this point in time. When I first saw it I thought it was a burnt out wreck that had been salvaged from a Motorway pile up, but many hours and $$$$$$$$ in the future could look as good as the photo.

[John McKechnie]

Gerald- any history you can tell us about on this car with potential?

[AMCO72]

John, if I can pin the Lad down, I will ask him the gory details. I think, initially anyway he was going to build it for Central Muscle Cars, but seeing that photo MIGHT persuade him to change tack, and if Georges new class gets going could be somewhere where it could race. George is talking about 3 strikes and your out for contact, something that wouldn't work in CMC!!!!!

[aussiemonza]

Now that is one sharp looking car. We have another one in NZ, imported by Fogg Motorsport last year, that is how shall we say, a bit rougher than that one. I am not sure of its history, if indeed it has any, but if the owner can drag himself away from fixing dodgy Jags and crashed Minis, we might see it out and about one day.

The term by the way is......'a bucket of bolts', and being kind, that is how I would describe it at this point in time. When I first saw it I thought it was a burnt out wreck that had been salvaged from a Motorway pile up, but many hours and $$$$$$$$ in the future could look as good as the photo.

Hi Amco, The Fogg Motorsport Monza has the correct body kit I need for the McKee car that I have been chasing for a number of years. Currently chatting with Angus about it. As the Red Dawson Monza is virtually extinct (only the A pillar, turret and half of the C pillars of the original car still remains), there would always be the opportunity for a Red Dawson (tribute) type car!

[CUSTAXIE50]

Now that is one sharp looking car. We have another one in NZ, imported by Fogg Motorsport last year, that is how shall we say, a bit rougher than that one. I am not sure of its history, if indeed it has any, but if the owner can drag himself away from fixing dodgy Jags and crashed Minis, we might see it out and about one day.

The term by the way is......'a bucket of bolts', and being kind, that is how I would describe it at this point in time. When I first saw it I thought it was a burnt out wreck that had been salvaged from a Motorway pile up, but many hours and $$$$$$$$ in the future could look as good as the photo.

Yes i know the term is--a bucket of bolts,but if you look at it this way dont we say sometimes she is not running right today.

[Rod Grimwood]

My personal plea would be for the cars to run as they were in period. No modern modifications, but enjoy what they were...a piece of history that is as exciting to watch today as it was way back then when I was a spotty faced teenage flag marshall at Manfield.

Got me crunch.

Amco, you get back to work and make some more $$$$ so that Monza gets finished, No future in you argueing all day on here with uncle Jim, now you have a new project.

[George Sheweiry]

Ok Guys, Just remember the meeting is on this Saturday for this new class so please come along and put your 10cents worth in and lets get this off the ground. See ya there. Cheers, George.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Ok Guys, Just remember the meeting is on this Saturday for this new class so please come along and put your 10cents worth in and lets get this off the ground. See ya there. Cheers, George.

How did the meeting go on Saturday George,any news you can put up on this class.

[George Sheweiry]

Ok, the meeting started with 10 people being, Myself, Graeme Addis, Bob Homewood, Barry Algie, Gordon Burr, Paul McCarthy, Bruce Thompson, Tony Antunovich, Dave Hand and Rex Hand present. I handed out a list of rules pretty much based on what I had talked about on here which seemed also to be the majority opinion on this thread. Some glanced quickly thru it and a few had a good read. We then set about a general discussion of the main criteria/ what era of vehicles could run, vehicle eligibility and race format. Gordon Burr felt that having rules was the problem with getting people with cars to run them, so It was decided that getting the series up and running was the no1 priority so the era was set at 1963 to 1988 and a full formation of the class and rules would be looked at after the first few meetings. So Vehicle compliance to its period would also not be important until a gauge could be made from the first few meetings. Graham Addis was vehemently opposed to handicap races and so it was decided that they would all be Scratch races. These would consist of 1 practise and 3 races all of 6 laps per meeting. I felt we needed a bit more of a guide of where the rules would be likely to go especially for fielding calls of those who might be interested so it was decided that it was preferred that vehicles be period correct and that vehicles outside this may still compete at the discretion of the committee but this would all be very loose for those first few meetings. That is a very condensed version of how it was, certainly not what I envisioned however as I pointed out from the beginning the class would be formed by the people who took the time to come along and start it. A show of hands gave 8 cars from this group for the first meeting and with a count up of those previously talked to it looks like the number would be about 15. So there we are, that leaves the door open to any cars or replicas from that era to get out there and have a race in a low key club type series of 6 meetings starting Sept and going thru till April next year. It will only work of course if you guys out there with those type of cars get cracking and run in it!! I would also like to make clear, (as I think can be backed up by the outcome of this formation) This is not a "George Sheweiry" Class I only did this to get something up and running so we could run these neat old race cars, and once going its momentum will run itself. Cheers. George.

[AMCO72]

George, a great start. However, I wonder why Graham Addis is so against handicap races? I think, with any 'classic' style racing, and certainly the type of vehicle you are proposing, that handicap starts are the preferred method, if only to avoid that scramble into the first few corners, and the possibility of a coming together between cars. I know there are a number of folk on the roaring season that are opposed to them also, but surely it isn't to do with winning or not, as everything being equal the front guys are going to win, or should I say cross the line ahead of the rest of the field anyway.

I know it is a pain trying to work out and administer handicaps, but I have seen some of the best classic racing ever that have been started under a handicap, with the back markers really putting on a show to get to the front, and mostly safely. Sometimes they did, and sometimes they didn't, but the spectacle of them trying, made these starts so memorable. Otherwise the finish should be in the approximate position to where a car started, given that all sorts of things thwart drivers when they are actually racing, as opposed to setting a qualifying time. You have already said that there will be a big difference in lap times with these cars, something that could have been addressed with handicapping.

Your group seems to have made up its mind on this matter, so there it is. Good luck to you.

[ERC]

Totally agree with AMCO.

I am not interested in winning, as my car is not a winner now, never has been , never will be, however, circulating in glorious isolation at the back of a pack, never seeing anyone ahead or behind, you may as well do a track day. It is not racing unless you have the best car - and even then, I can't see the point of just running away from the pack, it still isn't really racing.

Remember the late great Gerry Marshall understood that even if you have the fastest car, the spectators would rather see you 'mixing it'. This is is why Gerry is still ranked as many people's favourite driver of all time.

I wonder why people with the really fast cars are the ones who often don't like handicaps? Don't they like to be beaten or do they just HAVE to win?

[George Sheweiry]

Hi Amco, I fully agree after all most classes except for tier1 use a variety of handicap, reverse grid and scratch races and they all seem to manage it very well, and I have always felt that when forming something new you need to put the "whats best for the good of the class and ALL the competitors" hat on because the race is not a race without all the other competitors. But then that is only my opinion and hey as a democratic class it goes by majority vote. Graeme's concern was the huge speed difference say on pukes back straight and taking someone out who makes a quick move into the path of a way faster car and remember, he is one of the people who got off his chuff and fronted up. An interesting comment from Barrie Algie was that he still has lots of things to change on the car that aren't quite right which to me makes me wonder whether everyone there had a grip on the fact that the idea was for a class for HISTORIC sports sedans. Anyway the great thing is that none of this is completely set in concrete yet it is underway. But and I must stress this It is definitely going to be formed by the nucleus of people who turn up for those first few meets so anybody who thinks this is a worth while class needs to get along to those first meets and support it, remember "use it or lose it" Here endeth the fifth lesson lol. Cheers. George.

[AMCO72]

No George, NO LoL needed there!!!!!!!!! I am guessing that by the time this all gets underway and on the track we will be up to the
50th lesson. But thanks for your explanation.

One would hope that no one, least of an experienced driver, who all these people will be, will, as you say, make a quick move into the path of a faster car........NOT IF THEY ARE USING THEIR MIRRORS........ And a lot of these cars are right hand drive which makes the mirror thing a whole lot better, as against the LHD problem we have /had at HD with the Muscle Cars.

Your comment on whether people had the right idea of what sort of class they were competing in, is very apt. This is something Dale struggles with all the time with his boys...........however if you are a competitive person, its in the blood.......faster, faster, faster!

[ERC]

And therein lies the quandary. IF you are driving to the limits of the car, 100% in its original configuration, there is no faster, faster , faster - from the car, just consistency from the driver!

[crunch]

Hi George.
Good work, however I do have huge misgivings regarding the no-rules for the first dew meetings.
How many are a few?
Once the door is open to a run-what-you-brung, it will be very hard to close it. For instance; who is going to tell someone that they now cant run thier car because you are introducing the proper rules, if they had been allowed at the first "few"?
This scenario has happened in the past, and in the end it will cause division, or no-one will be banned due to vehicle non-compliance, so you will have a clubmans field. If that is what the group wants; that's fine, but dont try to sell it as Historic.

It would be best to start with rules in place, then everyone knows exactly where they stand. But I'm not lucky enough to own one of these vehicles, so this is just an opinion.

[John McKechnie]

ERC- you should also have put in that the consistency of the Turtle beat the speed of the Hare in Aesops tale

[AMCO72]

John, that's not a lesson, that's a fable........and there are a few of Mr Aesops little gems that we need to take on board. I will dig one or two of them out!

By the way......would the Amco mini be eligible for this class. I feel that this ex BNSW car would be more at home with these guys, even though it is not strictly a Sports Sedan.

[bob homewood]

No I agreed with Graeme on that one ,that closing speed difference especially on the Back Straight at Puke was dam dangerous ,now that is coming from some one who on paper should have benefited from the Handicap races ,but sorry I got run off the track too many times down the back straight back in those days especially on the fastest part after the kink ,its not a matter of watching the mirrors ,its the closing speed of the faster cars ,you are there before they even have time to notice

Hi Amco, I fully agree after all most classes except for tier1 use a variety of handicap, reverse grid and scratch races and they all seem to manage it very well, and I have always felt that when forming something new you need to put the "whats best for the good of the class and ALL the competitors" hat on because the race is not a race without all the other competitors. But then that is only my opinion and hey as a democratic class it goes by majority vote. Graeme's concern was the huge speed difference say on pukes back straight and taking someone out who makes a quick move into the path of a way faster car and remember, he is one of the people who got off his chuff and fronted up. An interesting comment from Barrie Algie was that he still has lots of things to change on the car that aren't quite right which to me makes me wonder whether everyone there had a grip on the fact that the idea was for a class for HISTORIC sports sedans. Anyway the great thing is that none of this is completely set in concrete yet it is underway. But and I must stress this It is definitely going to be formed by the nucleus of people who turn up for those first few meets so anybody who thinks this is a worth while class needs to get along to those first meets and support it, remember "use it or lose it" Here endeth the fifth lesson lol. Cheers. George.

[George Sheweiry]

Hi George.
Good work, however I do have huge misgivings regarding the no-rules for the first dew meetings.
How many are a few?
Once the door is open to a run-what-you-brung, it will be very hard to close it. For instance; who is going to tell someone that they now cant run thier car because you are introducing the proper rules, if they had been allowed at the first "few"?
This scenario has happened in the past, and in the end it will cause division, or no-one will be banned due to vehicle non-compliance, so you will have a clubmans field. If that is what the group wants; that's fine, but dont try to sell it as Historic.

It would be best to start with rules in place, then everyone knows exactly where they stand. But I'm not lucky enough to own one of these vehicles, so this is just an opinion.

Well crunch aint that the truth, and I said all of that but at the risk of repeating, the majority ruled.
Yes Amco the mini sure can run. George.

[ERC]

If the speed differential is too high, that is when you need to split grids by lap times... Which is then another TWO classes to the existing list!!! It does eliminate the major problem though, as the closing speed of the fastest car in either group, against the slowest, is a fraction of what it is in one large or diverse class.

In any class purporting to be classic or historic, surely driving standards have to be high on the list of requirements? Sadly, we saw as much or possibly more panel damage at the Hulme Festival, (supposedly "it is all about the cars") than most series classic race meetings, where there are regular drivers, used to running with the others and bad driving can soon be stamped out by the series committee.

I half agree with Crunch in that a framework of rules is required, but the more technical and involved they are, the more difficult it gets to administer and moderate and also to cover all eventualities.

We have always operated on a consensus of views from the active drivers. If enough believe a car is against the spirit of the regulations, out it goes - and that IS enshrined in the rules.