The Roaring Season

Roger H, while I agree with many things you say, on this one its a bridge to far, and won't work, plus you could sell the Beemer and join a real club! but the rules that clubs gain affiliation to MSNZ, are well founded, and are in common with most organisations for very good reasons, it keeps every body honest, and when you look at the history of some clubs, it isn't good what happens sometimes, and as far as some one standing from Auckland for a position, why should the region stop the best getting the job, clubs in the northern district can put up who they like, and its up to them to make sure all the beans are in the tin, when it comes to the count.
I don't personally have a problem in the way MSNZ has been set up, I have a problem in what we have allowed to happen, I want to see more openess, and don't want to hear the cry "send Lawyers, guns, and money" ( Warren Zevon)

RogerH wrote:Sorry but I don't follow your logic - everyone who has a MSNZ Competition Licence effectively has paid a capitation levy to MSNZ as a prerequisite to getting a licence is having to belong to an affiliated member club.

Look at this hypothetical scenario - Someone belongs to the BMW Car Club as they have a BMW road car. This club is an affiliated member club of MSNZ so that person is able to "use" the BMW Car Club membership to get a MSNZ Competition Licence. The BMW Car Club pays MSNZ a capitation levy in respect of that person's membership (in fact the person actually pays it as it is a component of the membership fee they pay to the BMW Car Club).
As far as motor sport competition is concerned the BMW Car Club does not represent that person as they do not race a BMW - they race a Formula Junior. They are part of the NZ Formula Junior Register which is not an Incorporated Society so it can't belong to MSNZ, attend the AGM or vote. As far as motor sport is concerned that person is unrepresented at a MSNZ level despite them paying to MSNZ a capitation levy (effectively), a competition licence fee, a log book fee, a COD fee and effective fees through entry at events.

Racer Rog wrote:Roger H, while I agree with many things you say, on this one its a bridge to far, and won't work, plus you could sell the Beemer and join a real club! but the rules that clubs gain affiliation to MSNZ, are well founded, and are in common with most organisations for very good reasons, it keeps every body honest, and when you look at the history of some clubs, it isn't good what happens sometimes, and as far as some one standing from Auckland for a position, why should the region stop the best getting the job, clubs in the northern district can put up who they like, and its up to them to make sure all the beans are in the tin, when it comes to the count.
I don't personally have a problem in the way MSNZ has been set up, I have a problem in what we have allowed to happen, I want to see more openess, and don't want to hear the cry "send Lawyers, guns, and money" ( Warren Zevon)

Roger, I wasn't advocating regional representation in my post and I don't know how you read it as that? All I was doing was pointing out in a hypothetical situation that while a competitor has to belong to an affiliated club, that club may for whatever reason, not represent their competition situation and thus as a competitor they are effectively unrepresented.
If you take Ray's ERC group as an example. All of "his people" will need to belong to a club in order to get their licences but they will belong to a wide disparity of different clubs - marque clubs, general car clubs and race clubs. They do not have a common voice to represent their common interests of what is a long established and successful race group. I think it would be more healthy for the sport if groups like this could have representation irrespective of where they are based.
Some other anomalies to consider - if you have a car club or race group that is an established Trust, they are prohibited from participating in MSNZ.
If a circuit is owned by a Club it can be represented in MSNZ but if a circuit is owned by a company (ie: Hampton Downs) or a Trust then it can't be represented.
You could have the situation where a large group of active racers (BMW, F5000, FJ, etc) can't be represented irrespective of where they are based but you could get the likes of the Reliant Robin Owners Club (if such a club exists) that once met the criteria of an Incorporated Society (15 members) but with attrition are down to 3 members. Even though they have no activity in competition, they can go to the AGM and vote to elect the commission members for race, rally etc. Doesn't seem right to me.

Something that we occasional forget to remember is that the origonal name of MotorSport NZ was The Association Of New Zealand Car Clubs (ANZCC) and not the association of NZ competition licence holders and other interested parties.

It was the various car clubs from around NZ that formed the association and went through all the processes required to affiliate to the FIA which in turn has its responsibility for world motorsport delegated to them from the United Nations.

In many countries the FIA has delegated the authority to our equivalent of the NZ Automobile Association (NZAA) and they in turn have set up a seperate arm to control the sport in their country.

Think I will run off to the pub now, anyone care to join me?

I understand that the genesis of MSNZ was through car clubs and that is how it is now. My commentary (made to hopefully create constructive debate) was that maybe times have changed and motor sport activity is now not just totally club based. For example, our club is putting on a meeting tomorrow with around 160 entrants - it is at a circuit (Hampton Downs) that is not represented on MSNZ as it owned by a company. All the classes racing are established series (BMW E30, BMW Open, AES and Arrows Wheels) and none of them are represented on MSNZ. I just think it could be beneficial for the sport if some of these groups that are very active in the sport could find representation at MSNZ.

Tier 1 Taupo, 2 day meeting a year or two ago - totally backed/promoted by MSNZ - 67 cars, spectators have to pay - probably a loss making meeting no matter how you look at it.

Classic 1 day clubby at Hampton Downs (as above) - 160 cars - not really supported by MSNZ, free entry for spectators, profitable meeting for the club - and MSNZ at $25 a pop.

Rather ironic isn't it.

[ All the classes racing are established series (BMW E30, BMW Open, AES and Arrows Wheels) and none of them are represented on MSNZ. QUOTE

Depends what you mean by representation. All 160 competitors are using mSNZ Licences and are running vehicles to a safety schedule developed(ing) by MSNZ on a circuit permited by MSNZ. The officials of the meeting are trained by MSNZ and I know most of the marshalls now are part of a group that represents them at a Commission level.
If drama happens in these series and a competitor is not happy he can use the appeal process developed bySNZ. Does happen in even the "friendly" series every year.

I know people will poo-poo this, but this is actually why you pay the small levy at each meeting.

I guess the main question is if you wish to start a seperate H&C organisation attached to MSNZ, what will actually be changed? If there are positive changes that can be identified, then it is a good idea, and also gives the H&C Commission the indication that it has indeed failed at representing the complex area of H&C racing, and arguably that does indeed bode that it should be dropped from MSNZ.

MSNZ did not suggest that the H&C Commission be dropped, they are equally concerned regarding this suggestion. That came from an independent person on the review. I would be interested to know the reasoning behind that, but sadly the lack of detail in this less than satisfactory report (my opinion) doesnt tell us.

Whilst on details; the two staff of MSNZ that were asked for input were questioned on the systems used in the office, not on any sporting matters.

[quote="ERC"]Tier 1 Taupo, 2 day meeting a year or two ago - totally backed/promoted by MSNZ - 67 cars, spectators have to pay - probably a loss making meeting no matter how you look at it.

MSNZ does not promote the Tier One. This year MSNZ is helping the circuits promote the Tier One, but it is primarily the circuits that are wearing the costs/risks.

Now logging off and ducking down in the trench...

crunch wrote:If drama happens in these series and a competitor is not happy he can use the appeal process developed bySNZ. Does happen in even the "friendly" series every year.

Not quite Crunch. The very reason I got involved in the first place was precisely because of that, when a disgruntled competitor appealed a decision made by the series drivers and committee and "took it all the way". The previous convenor of 10 years standing walked out of it (quite rightly) and I was then asked to take it over.

So to avoid a repeat, we wrote up the current articles and also took legal advice as to our position.

By being a non-sanctioned series, (in fact, we are an invitation series) MSNZ have nothing whatever to do with the administration and application of our rules. MSNZ's involvement is limited to the normal safety and driving rules, issuing of licences etc, but they have absolutely no jurisdiction whatever in the running of the series. By being an invitation series, we also have the sole right to accept or refuse entries regardless of whether or not a car conforms to the rules.

That "small levy" at each meeting amounts to thousands and is the second largest expense after track hire. Tomorrow's meeting will net MSNZ $4,000 in levies and is of course in addition to the $21,600 worth of race licences and $800 worth of affiliation fees. I accept that there is an insurance cover of sorts somewhere in that levy, but I am not too sure how much. Maybe someone can enlighten me?

ERC wrote:Not quite Crunch. The very reason I got involved in the first place was precisely because of that, when a disgruntled competitor appealed a decision made by the series drivers and committee and "took it all the way". The previous convenor of 10 years standing walked out of it (quite rightly) and I was then asked to it take over.

So to avoid a repeat, we wrote up the current articles and also took legal advice as to our position.

By being a non-sanctioned series, (in fact, we are an invitation series) MSNZ have nothing whatever to do with the administration and application of our rules. MSNZ's involvement is limited to the normal safety and driving rules, issuing of licences etc, but they have absolutely no jurisdiction whatever in the running of the series. By being an invitation series, we also have the sole right to accept or refuse entries regardless of whether or not a car conforms to the rules.

That "small levy" at each meeting amounts to thousands and is the second largest expense after track hire. Tomorrow's meeting will net MSNZ $4,000.

Hi Ray
Every Licence holder has the right to use any or all of the appeal processes available in the MSNZ Manual. It doesn't matter if you are sanctioned or not.
My comment regarding the "small levy" wasnt meant to be demeaning, just my perception of the costs of motorsport. And I do know those first-hand.

With reference to Racer Rog and Carlo, I don't think MSNZ membership is just restricted to Clubs. On having another read of the Constitution it appears that in addition to a Club another form of "Organisation" can join (I note in this regard there are several Registers who are MSNZ members). The wording is : "A club or organisation which is interested in automobile sport and which is an incorporated society may apply to MotorSport to be a member."
The problem as I see it is the mandatory requirement that the club or other type of organisation has to be an Incorporated Society. I don't understand why there is this restriction as many of the likes of the F5000, FJ, BMW, ERC etc meet what appears to be the most important part of the criteria being an "organisation which is interested in automobile sport". If the Incorporated Society criteria was relaxed then these types of organisation could join which must only be positive for the sport.

crunch wrote:MSNZ did not suggest that the H&C Commission be dropped, they are equally concerned regarding this suggestion. That came from an independent person on the review. I would be interested to know the reasoning behind that, but sadly the lack of detail in this less than satisfactory report (my opinion) doesnt tell us.

This seems very strange Crunch. I would assume that a proposal such as this would not go into the report unless it had at least majority support from the panel. A such, it doesn't seem to have come from just one person but at least a couple. I also wonder from where these independent panel members picked up such an idea as dropping H&C but retaining Clubsport? I hope its not true that it did emanate from within MSNZ and they are now backtracking in the face of the relatively widespread criticism of this particular proposal.

I think that most organisations like MSNZ have the fact that the member clubs are incorporated societies, the reason is accountability as I am given to understand and the groups you are talking of, do have imput into what goes on in terms of H & C anyway, even Eric's views are debated with vigor at commission meetings, as he is well aware, Crunch has a policy of working with these groups, and individuals, involved in T & C and schedual K, and many have made submissions to the Commission, so to say they don't have a voice, does not fly. Personally I don't want to leave MSNZ, it has a good foundation, its just that there are a few leaks in the roof, which is what this is all about, it will be easier to fix, than try and set something else up.
Roger

RogerH wrote:With reference to Racer Rog and Carlo, I don't think MSNZ membership is just restricted to Clubs. On having another read of the Constitution it appears that in addition to a Club another form of "Organisation" can join (I note in this regard there are several Registers who are MSNZ members). The wording is : "A club or organisation which is interested in automobile sport and which is an incorporated society may apply to MotorSport to be a member."
The problem as I see it is the mandatory requirement that the club or other type of organisation has to be an Incorporated Society. I don't understand why there is this restriction as many of the likes of the F5000, FJ, BMW, ERC etc meet what appears to be the most important part of the criteria being an "organisation which is interested in automobile sport". If the Incorporated Society criteria was relaxed then these types of organisation could join which must only be positive for the sport.

Racer Rog wrote:.... even Eric's views are debated with vigor at commission meetings, as he is well aware ...

Who is Eric?

[quote=" I hope its not true that it did emanate from within MSNZ and they are now backtracking in the face of the relatively widespread criticism of this particular proposal.[/QUOTE"]

It is not true Roger. This did not come from any suggestion of anyone in anyway connected with MSNZ.

RogerH wrote:You could have the situation where a large group of active racers (BMW, F5000, FJ, etc) can't be represented irrespective of where they are based .

Following on from Roger H's comments, when we look back on the MSNZ website and look at the listing of the member clubs one does see a number of specialist race categories listed as clubs. Mini 7, Pre 65, RX7, SS2000, Drift, Trucks, Formula Ford, S.I. Formula etc just to name a few. Competitors in these clubs are spread all around the countryside and I guess that they all wanted to have a common voice and not have it diluted by a general club membership.

Then there are the groups who have their regulations confirmed as a sanction series and who are not member clubs, The South Island Enducance Series being a prime example.


With our classic motorsport we in NZ need to realise that the one of the major growth area for Historics world wide in now in the sector of rallying and we need to ensure that this sector is catered for and that we clearly identify those cars which belong to the historic group and those older cars that have been modified way outside of the historic regs but which people identify as classics such as Escorts with Nissan or Honda engines, 6 speed sequential gearboxes etc. In truth such cars are hot rods but very well built ones that are great to watch but they do not represent any vehicle of the period.

This is just another reason why I would like to see some cross over between the various commissions as it is not fair on a group primarily elected from a historic race perpective to be well informed on historic rallying matters, especially in the fields of vehicle elegibility as it relates to how we first ran cars in NZ followed by NZ Group Pacific regulations, FIA Group 1.2.3.& 4 Regulations, FIA Group A & B regulations and of course Homologation papers

Good post Carlo and a good point particularly about repowered cars. The H & C commission quite rightly put their priority on the preservation of genuine historic cars. As this thread is about the Organisational Review, I'll start another thread about repowered classics as it is a bone of considerable contention and probably worthy of discussion.

Carlo wrote:Following on from Roger H's comments, when we look back on the MSNZ website and look at the listing of the member clubs one does see a number of specialist race categories listed as clubs. Mini 7, Pre 65, RX7, SS2000, Drift, Trucks, Formula Ford, S.I. Formula etc just to name a few. Competitors in these clubs are spread all around the countryside and I guess that they all wanted to have a common voice and not have it diluted by a general club membership.

Then there are the groups who have their regulations confirmed as a sanction series and who are not member clubs, The South Island Enducance Series being a prime example.


With our classic motorsport we in NZ need to realise that the one of the major growth area for Historics world wide in now in the sector of rallying and we need to ensure that this sector is catered for and that we clearly identify those cars which belong to the historic group and those older cars that have been modified way outside of the historic regs but which people identify as classics such as Escorts with Nissan or Honda engines, 6 speed sequential gearboxes etc. In truth such cars are hot rods but very well built ones that are great to watch but they do not represent any vehicle of the period.

This is just another reason why I would like to see some cross over between the various commissions as it is not fair on a group primarily elected from a historic race perpective to be well informed on historic rallying matters, especially in the fields of vehicle elegibility as it relates to how we first ran cars in NZ followed by NZ Group Pacific regulations, FIA Group 1.2.3.& 4 Regulations, FIA Group A & B regulations and of course Homologation papers

As you well know Carl; the Rally Commission is consulted regarding Schedule RH.

crunch wrote:As you well know Carl; the Rally Commission is consulted regarding Schedule RH.

Yes but not on a regular basis with regards to the issue of a COD.

As an aside had it not been for a competitor contacting me and then my becoming involved we would have been missing a two car team from the Silver Fern Rally. To be fair I do wonder if the Historic commission had seen the COD application prior to then.

Representation is as much a state of mind as anything else. No one, nor any group or organisation, is either granted or denied representation to MSNZ.

The clubs I have represented at conference have taken their needs and responsibilities in this area very seriously.

In the case of Rally Wairarapa Inc. (possibly one of the smallest clubs affiliated to MSNZ), the financial commitments and exposure, and the risks to the safety and well being of, not only our competitors and volunteers but also ourselves as organisers, are such that a level of influence disproportionate to our size is imperative.

The consequences of poor governance could be catastrophic for all similar organisations, so not only do we accept our role in self preservation but also the reponsibility as major players to share our knowledge for the benefit of others, and the sport as a whole.

You will also find that each of the members on this organising team are more in touch with our competitors, and have a greater knowledge and understanding of their wants and needs, than the clubs to which they belong. And therefore more able to be representative.

Many race classes do affiliate and play their part in influencing policy. Many do not. It's fair to assume that those which do not simply do not perceive a need.
Motorsport is run by people and groups who get off their arse and do stuff. The decisions should be made by those people.