This is getting ridiculous

[John McKechnie]

I have it on good authority-
1-racing cheese cutter caps are for the Lotus brigade
2-silk scarfs are for Porsche 911/Jaguar XKs
3-fire proof walk knee lengths are for Mini 7s

[Limezed]

Good call John.

I’ll be looking forward to these becoming mandatory next season. It could be like the Goodwood Revival where each marque driver has to wear specific attire. Of course there would need to be a MSNZ fee to do so and maybe an ACC levy as well.

[Reeceracer]

You forgot the FHR compatible helmet to add to the list......just sayin........

Right so now I have to:

1. Fix the car for the coming season (engine issues after last season)
2. Purchase flame proof underwear
3. Have my cage modified so my belts are at the now 0-20 for FHR device
4. Get a FHR
5. Get new belts that are 6 point (5 points I have are ok for now...but...) - more welding to the floor of the car for new mounting point for the extra crutch straps
6. Get a seat that is designed for FHR and approved for the appropriate standard - that might not even fit in the car anyway....

Right so that adds up to more than the what I have spent in the last 3 seasons - only usually do 2-4 meetings due to costs already and this after I gave up building my Datsun 260z and purchased a Mini due to cheaper running cost and part availability (good luck finding good Datsun panels after a minor ding...hence my reason for change).

Looks like I made the wrong life choices - 4 kids take a lot of time and money leaving little for my "fun" and now the "fun" is getting to a point where I just can't afford to do it anymore working for wages....Lotto where are you...

I better join the younger generation and get a PS4/Xbox or PC and do my racing virtually and see you on the track in 10 years time or....never....

[Frosty5]

Mike L... along with the flameproof underwear, dont forget you also must have-
A-balaclava,
B-gloves and
C-correct sox.
These are not inspected at logbook time , but are surreptitiously noted before or after a race meeting...ask Rick Cooper.

John, sorry mate you are incorrect re inspection. All competitors must present their vehicle and clothing at scrutineering which I check. If they roll up to scrutineering without the appropriate clothing they have two choices, withdraw from the event or go and get the clothing. I was Chief Scrutineer for the NI Endurance events and the gentleman in question declined to wear his protective underwear claiming a triple layer suit was sufficient even though he had it - so how does that work???
Dave Graham
MSNZ Scrutineer 150253Y

[John McKechnie]

Dave...sorry, I sXXXXd up since I am not a Scrutineer, and accept I am wrong
Last post here- if I dont do any more postings here so I dont lead anyone astray .
Its been fun guys.

[Oldfart]

John, sorry mate you are incorrect re inspection. All competitors must present their vehicle and clothing at scrutineering which I check. If they roll up to scrutineering without the appropriate clothing they have two choices, withdraw from the event or go and get the clothing. I was Chief Scrutineer for the NI Endurance events and the gentleman in question declined to wear his protective underwear claiming a triple layer suit was sufficient even though he had it - so how does that work???
Dave Graham
MSNZ Scrutineer 150253Y

I have no doubt you are right Dave, I still think it's pretty bizarre that you are put in a position to enforce MSNZ rules which are more strict than FIA. Triple layer plus underwear = sweat. More likely to be scalded by sweat turning to steam in a fire situation and they are medically horrendous to deal with. I do agree that some of the store bought undies are really bad (nylon etc) but another full layer?

[nzeder]

So does all this work for 2kcup guys or lemons where the whole idea is to keep the cheque book racing away and attract new drivers. 2k for a car. The 5k for safety gear to see if you like the sport in the first place.

Sure motorsport is not cheap we all get that. Yes safety is important and comes at a cost....get that.

I guess we will no longer have budget entry level classes and if you have spend $$ on safety gear might as well go all in and build a better car/hot rod that is faster and needs all this investment in safety gear.

I personally get why we need this as I am one of those temporary kiwis anyway who rides a motorcycle every day on the Auckland motorway system. So I am used to purchasing new helmets, boots, jackets, gloves etc on a regular basis. Maybe I should race bikes and not cars would be cheaper as all I need is a bike and helmet, leathers...hang on have all that already.....

And which would be more dangerous? Yep riding on the road every day in all weather conditions...which I do. So if you see me on the road (northern motorway CBD to Albany/Silverdale) I will be rider giving you a wave if you keep left (as recommended in the road code) and give me the space to go past (not at warp factor nine) while you travel at 20km/h

[Allan]

I did note some 2Kcup races shown on TV3 yesterday including incar with drivers without gloves.

[ERC]

When were the races though? Some of what appears on TV can be months old. Scrutineers can't check every car as it goes out on track.

How many people in anyone's memory have been at a track when fire has caused any injury? Anyone?

The last but one injury I can remember, a few years ago now, was an Alfa Sud at Pukekohe, where the driver suffered a broken arm - from the fire extinguisher, in the days before they were metal holders, when it broke loose and the plastic holder wasn't up to it.

The old 80/20 rule now applies to motorsport, as the greatest gains were made after 1950's, with hard hats, then treated Proban race suits, seat belts, then roll over protection and fire extinguishers and double and triple layer suits. All this up to maybe the 1990's?

All we have had since then has been some form of head and neck restraint.

Motorsport is Dangerous. Always has been, but it is a lot less dangerous now and we have exceeded the 80/20 rule and are now on the law of diminishing returns.

A double layer suit with cotton underwear gives a maximum of 30 seconds protection in the event of a fuel soaked driver catching fire.

May I suggest that the thousands HD are raking in on a spurious H & S charge would be better spent on ensuring a trapped driver can be reached by a fully equipped fire tender in a fair bit less than 30 seconds, because equipping a single manned marshal's post with just 1 extinguisher, which would NOT knock out a serious fire, and extinguish it, just doesn't cut it.

We are in the difficult situation of safety directives not now being related to the actual risks. There are other influences and I don't think that they are 100% safety related.

There has to be an entry level for the sport and there were many critics of the 2K Cup series, claiming that it would be carnage. Were they right or wrong? I haven't been to many meetings for 2K Cup competitors, but I'm willing to bet there have been fewer accidents and damage per car laps, than F5000 and even Historic Muscle Cars/Historic Saloons... Prove me wrong!

Number of injuries - fire related across all categories/laps driven over the last 15 years? Anyone?

[Spgeti]

I personally think you are looking at it from the wrong angle Ray.
If the FHR saves one life then the decision to go this way has been worth it.
The same with fire, I was burnt seriously as a child, and 62 year later I still wear the scars and disfiguriment of my burns.
Again if the fireproof clothing in one event reduces the burns again the decision to go down this way has been worth it.

We do not go out there to deliberately hurt ourselves but accidents do happen and sometimes with devastating outcomes.

Just my thoughts...

[Frosty5]

When were the races though? Some of what appears on TV can be months old. Scrutineers can't check every car as it goes out on track.

How many people in anyone's memory have been at a track when fire has caused any injury? Anyone?

The last but one injury I can remember, a few years ago now, was an Alfa Sud at Pukekohe, where the driver suffered a broken arm - from the fire extinguisher, in the days before they were metal holders, when it broke loose and the plastic holder wasn't up to it.

The old 80/20 rule now applies to motorsport, as the greatest gains were made after 1950's, with hard hats, then treated Proban race suits, seat belts, then roll over protection and fire extinguishers and double and triple layer suits. All this up to maybe the 1990's?

All we have had since then has been some form of head and neck restraint.

Motorsport is Dangerous. Always has been, but it is a lot less dangerous now and we have exceeded the 80/20 rule and are now on the law of diminishing returns.

A double layer suit with cotton underwear gives a maximum of 30 seconds protection in the event of a fuel soaked driver catching fire.

May I suggest that the thousands HD are raking in on a spurious H & S charge would be better spent on ensuring a trapped driver can be reached by a fully equipped fire tender in a fair bit less than 30 seconds, because equipping a single manned marshal's post with just 1 extinguisher, which would NOT knock out a serious fire, and extinguish it, just doesn't cut it.

We are in the difficult situation of safety directives not now being related to the actual risks. There are other influences and I don't think that they are 100% safety related.

There has to be an entry level for the sport and there were many critics of the 2K Cup series, claiming that it would be carnage. Were they right or wrong? I haven't been to many meetings for 2K Cup competitors, but I'm willing to bet there have been fewer accidents and damage per car laps, than F5000 and even Historic Muscle Cars/Historic Saloons... Prove me wrong!

Number of injuries - fire related across all categories/laps driven over the last 15 years? Anyone?

Ray, I dont make the rules but just follow and enforce them, right or wrong. Please don't shoot the messenger but have to have made comment on what some has been listed here.
Cheers
Dave Graham

[Frosty5]

I have no doubt you are right Dave, I still think it's pretty bizarre that you are put in a position to enforce MSNZ rules which are more strict than FIA. Triple layer plus underwear = sweat. More likely to be scalded by sweat turning to steam in a fire situation and they are medically horrendous to deal with. I do agree that some of the store bought undies are really bad (nylon etc) but another full layer?

Rhys, unfortunately or fortunately that is the nature of the beast. I have some reservations about the rules but them are the rules and I have to follow them regardless of my personal views. If I don't there goes my licence. As I said to Ray, don't shoot the messenger, send concerns to MSNZ and argue the points.
Dave Graham

[Frosty5]

When were the races though? Some of what appears on TV can be months old. Scrutineers can't check every car as it goes out on track.

How many people in anyone's memory have been at a track when fire has caused any injury? Anyone?

The last but one injury I can remember, a few years ago now, was an Alfa Sud at Pukekohe, where the driver suffered a broken arm - from the fire extinguisher, in the days before they were metal holders, when it broke loose and the plastic holder wasn't up to it.

The old 80/20 rule now applies to motorsport, as the greatest gains were made after 1950's, with hard hats, then treated Proban race suits, seat belts, then roll over protection and fire extinguishers and double and triple layer suits. All this up to maybe the 1990's?

All we have had since then has been some form of head and neck restraint.

Motorsport is Dangerous. Always has been, but it is a lot less dangerous now and we have exceeded the 80/20 rule and are now on the law of diminishing returns.

A double layer suit with cotton underwear gives a maximum of 30 seconds protection in the event of a fuel soaked driver catching fire.

May I suggest that the thousands HD are raking in on a spurious H & S charge would be better spent on ensuring a trapped driver can be reached by a fully equipped fire tender in a fair bit less than 30 seconds, because equipping a single manned marshal's post with just 1 extinguisher, which would NOT knock out a serious fire, and extinguish it, just doesn't cut it.

We are in the difficult situation of safety directives not now being related to the actual risks. There are other influences and I don't think that they are 100% safety related.

There has to be an entry level for the sport and there were many critics of the 2K Cup series, claiming that it would be carnage. Were they right or wrong? I haven't been to many meetings for 2K Cup competitors, but I'm willing to bet there have been fewer accidents and damage per car laps, than F5000 and even Historic Muscle Cars/Historic Saloons... Prove me wrong!

Number of injuries - fire related across all categories/laps driven over the last 15 years? Anyone?

Ray, these 3 endurance races were held May, June, July this year 2018. While I agree with some of your sentiments, I cannot bend the rules for anyone and never would I do it. I do this job because of a passion for NZ motorsport and want to contribute for the great times I have had in the past and not because I want to be a little Hitler (should read large) but because i want to put something back into motorsport. Perhaps those that disagree should turn up to the annual AGM and put their point across - just asking.
Dave Graham

[nzeder]

Right I worked out why we have to have flame proof underwear. If we have to install halo seats in the future for head restraint compliance in a number of cars those with small interiors aka Datsun 240z, MG, Mini and Lotus if you make a halo seat fit then you can't get in and out easily. So if your car does catch fire you need all that protection as it will take minutes to get out past the halo seat not seconds as it should take.

[928]

Right I worked out why we have to have flame proof underwear. If we have to install halo seats in the future for head restraint compliance in a number of cars those with small interiors aka Datsun 240z, MG, Mini and Lotus if you make a halo seat fit then you can't get in and out easily. So if your car does catch fire you need all that protection as it will take minutes to get out past the halo seat not seconds as it should take.

you assume you are not stunned, and or knocked out, during the accident, before the fire started

[Oldfart]

Dave, in response to your comment in post#69, there have been numerous attempts to MSNZ over the years about so many issues, often met with the response "I worked for "stuol" in the UK so I know, that everyone I know gave up banging their head against walls. The roll cage issue was well thrashed about and nothing at all gained.
I started my post with this copy and paste "I have no doubt you are right Dave, I still think it's pretty bizarre that you are put in a position to enforce MSNZ rules which are more strict than FIA". I thought that was showing it's not you any of us are blaming.(or shooting the messenger)

[Frosty5]

Dave, in response to your comment in post#69, there have been numerous attempts to MSNZ over the years about so many issues, often met with the response "I worked for "stuol" in the UK so I know, that everyone I know gave up banging their head against walls. The roll cage issue was well thrashed about and nothing at all gained.
I started my post with this copy and paste "I have no doubt you are right Dave, I still think it's pretty bizarre that you are put in a position to enforce MSNZ rules which are more strict than FIA". I thought that was showing it's not you any of us are blaming.(or shooting the messenger)

Thanks Rhys, understand what you are saying. Was just trying to set the record straight after comments on post #57

[Oldfart]

Over here in the UK I had to buy new gloves,because the legal ones I have, and can't use any more, while obviously a pair, don't, and never did, have the tags on both. New suit required to be FIA latest marking for all levels of competition. No balaclava needed, no underwear, nor correct socks. (All under FIA/MSA). Goggles or face shield needed for all levels where full face is not mandated.
Wouldn't it be nice if there were consistency when organisations are operating under an "umbrella" organisation?

[Reeceracer]

Right I worked out why we have to have flame proof underwear. If we have to install halo seats in the future for head restraint compliance in a number of cars those with small interiors aka Datsun 240z, MG, Mini and Lotus if you make a halo seat fit then you can't get in and out easily. So if your car does catch fire you need all that protection as it will take minutes to get out past the halo seat not seconds as it should take.

Well here's a story I just have to relate which will probably cause some conjecture....
A few months back a good friend of mine bought a racecar which had Head Restraint seats fitted. Now being an older gentleman he is not as limber as he used to be and although not a small car he really struggled to extricate himself unaided between the seat wings/roll cage and roofline. Another real obvious problem was that you lost all peripheral vision with these particular seats. Not a good thing when going into Turn 1 at Puke/Hampton and there's a car alongside......
So we sold them and put some "standard" race seats in it and now not only can he get in and out safely and quickly but there is a lot less chance of causing an accident as he can see and sense other cars around him much better.
I drove this car before and after and agreed with the issues.
Does the whole cotton wool theory just go too far sometimes?.....

[Oldfart]

Well here's a story I just have to relate which will probably cause some conjecture....
A few months back a good friend of mine bought a racecar which had Racetech Halo seats fitted. Now being an older gentleman he is not as limber as he used to be and although not a small car he really struggled to extricate himself between the seat wings/roll cage and roofline. Another real obvious problem was that you lost all peripheral vision with these particular seats. Not a good thing when going into Turn 1 at Puke/Hampton and there's a car alongside......
So we sold them and put some "standard" race seats in it and now not only can he get in and out safely and quickly but there is a lot less chance of causing an accident as he can see and sense other cars around him much better.
I drove this car before and after and agreed with the issues.
Does the whole cotton wool theory just go too far sometimes?.....

I would hesitate to blame the seat, as there are clearly installation issues in this case for which, perhaps, the seat is taking the brunt of the blame, whereas there are other things to consider. The head restraint system clearly has side vision issues, all the manufacturers mention that.
I'm personally unsure about the applications in which some of the HR type seats (they are not halo) have been used, especially in cars where vision is an issue, however they have been shown clearly in testing to give a large margin of neck safety. Proviso, exit and entry times are actually mandated, would it have complied in this case?
Yes, I do work in the industry now.