Bloody hell, I’m beginning to see why nobody wanted to take this on. Everyone avoids stepping up to the plate, they’re all too busy, with too many other commitments etc, but then when someone finally does, everyone else jumps on them and tells them they’ve f%@&ed up, and they should be doing it differently! Yikes! What a mine-field.
Anyway, here are some historical facts. Following the 1967 NZ Saloon Car Championship, MSNZ dropped the Allcomer rules in favor of FIA Group 5 rules. Group 5 were being used elsewhere in the world, including the British Saloon Car Championship, European Touring Car Championship, and various European domestic touring car championships. Australia were using what they called Improved Production rules, which, as far as I can tell, where very similar to FIA Group 5 up until 1970, when they began adjusting the rules to suit.
For 1970, the BSCC, ETCC, and other European championships switched to Group 2 rules, which allowed a few more freedoms than those of Group 5. In NZ, we continued with Group 5 until around 1973, when we switched to a set of locally concocted rules called Schedule E. These rules were almost like the old Allcomer rules, in that you could stick a Chev V8 in an Escort, or a Victor, etc. Initially, not much changed, the Group 5 cars continued to set the pace under Schedule E, but over time, it was with these rules cars such as Jack Nazers Victor Chevy, Red Dawsons DeKon Monza, the PDL II Mustang etc all raced. These rules ultimately brought about the demise of big bore sedan racing in the NZ Saloon Car Championship as they were essentially too expensive.
Now, Rod Collingwood won the 1972 NZ Saloon Car Championship in the AMCO Mini now owned by Gerald Fogg. At the time, NZ was using Group 5 rules. But Collingwood won the title because of the way the points system worked. It rewarded class wins which counted towards outright points. So, by gaining better placings in his 1 litre class than the V8 guys did in the 6 litre class, he was able to win the title. He didn’t win the title because his car was faster on the track than the V8s, because it wasn’t.
Typically, the V8s were faster than the smaller capacity cars. That’s just the ugly truth. This was the case the world over. During the Group 5 era in NZ, the only car that actually genuinely outpaced the V8s was Paul Fahey’s 1,800cc Escort FVC. He won the 1971 championship by being outright the fastest car on the track. In Australia, Pete Geoghegan was the last driver of a small capacity car to win the Australian Touring Car Championship. He won it in 1964 in a Cortina GT. Throughout the entire Improved Production era, and into Group C from 1973 through 1984, a V8 won the championship every year from 1965, through to 1983, when Allan Moffat won in a Mazda RX7 during the latter stages of the Group C era. The fact is, V8s are just faster. As Bruce McLaren once said: “A good big’n will always beat a good little’n”.
Here is a photo from 1971, when NZ was using Group 5 rules. The V8s are at the front, with only Paul Faheys Escort in the mix. Next are the 1,001 - 4,200cc class cars, followed by the 0-1,000cc class cars.
Here is a photo from 1973, when NZ had just started using Schedule E. The rules have hanged, but the situation hasn't. Its still the V8s at the front. The fact is, you probably need a V8 to beat a V8. This was the case 45 years ago, and its still the case now.
Now, with regards the arguments here for allowing some of the HSC cars on slicks. According to Gerald Fogg, his AMCO Mini was racing on slick tyres as early as 1970. I consider Gerald to be an upstanding and very honest person. So I have to believe he genuinely believes this. According to the excellent link Jac Mac added in Post #65 above, slick tyres didn’t appear in Australia until 1972. Therefore, Rod Collingwood somehow got hold of a set of slick tyres a full two years before they first appeared in Australia. This could well have been the case. I’ve posted a photo that shows the AMCO Mini fitted with treaded tyres. Gerald said that Collingwood ran the entire season on one set of tyres. Is it possible they were treaded tyres that had done so many racing miles the tread had worn off? Maybe they really were slicks. Certainly, they’d have been some of the very first slicks to appear on a race car anywhere in the Southern Hemisphere. But this could well have been the case.
Regardless, lets just say Collingwood did indeed have slicks on the AMCO Mini as early as 1970. While the AMCO Mini was possibly the very first car fitted with slick racing tyres in NZ, whats certain is that by 1972/73, every other car racing was also fitted with slicks. Therefore, if the AMCO Mini can have slicks, then so can everyone else in HMC and HSC.
I'm only quoting these old historical facts because you guys are using history as the reason for wanting slicks accepted.
Now, what you guys are effectively suggesting is that the rules be changed to manipulate falsified results by allowing some (or all?) HSC cars on slicks so they can compete equally with the V8s. How does this benefit HSC as a whole if one or two small capacity cars are able to battle the V8s? There appears to be an assumption that HMC took on the running of HSC with the objective of creating falsified racing between large and small cars that never actually happened in period. But this isn’t the case. It took on HSC to provide a safe haven for owners of T&C and Schedule K cars who were sick of being put in groups against either modern race cars and/or heavily modified cars built way outside either T&C or Schedule K rules. The fact that some T&C and Schedule K cars are as fast as the fastest V8s is really only a happy side-effect. And, the two groups do look cool together.
The fact is, at many events, HMC and HSC will have to have separate grids, because car numbers will be such that there are too many cars for one grid. That being the case, if the AMCO Mini is fitted with slick tyres and racing in a field of small capacity HSC-only cars all on treaded tyres, its clearly going to romp away into the distance. How does this benefit HSC? How are the other HSC racers going to react to this? Whatever happens for HSC, has to be good for the group as a whole, not one or two individuals.
I appreciate you guys like the idea of the small capacity cars being able to match it with the V8s, but there is no way we could allow either one, or two, or a handful of HSC cars to be fitted with slicks, without causing a riot among everyone else. If you let one guy on slicks, you have to let everyone else on slicks.
Answer me this:
1: Which HSC cars should be allowed on slick tyres? Just the actual original cars with period history? All the Schedule K cars? Or all the HSC cars including the T&C cars?
2: Should these cars be fitted with bias-ply slick tyres as used in period, or modern radial slicks?
3: Is there an assumption here that everyone who owns and races an HSC car will want to race on slicks? What if the majority don’t? How do we manage a situation in which some people are not happy that some cars are fitted with slicks?
4: By allowing slicks, are we promoting chequebook racing over historic racing?
5: Some of the HMC car owners are already uncomfortable with racing against the small capacity cars, because their behavior is so different and they are able to duck and dive in and out of the HMC drivers blind spots. If the HSC cars are on slicks, they’ll be even more nimble. How do we then manage this situation with the HMC drivers?
6: In the cases where the HMC cars and the HSC cars are divided into their own separate races, should the HSC cars still run slicks?
Its all very well throwing around ideas for the sake of appealing to one or two people, but the good of the class as a whole always has to be put ahead of the good of single individuals.
Its really best to view HMC and HSC as two completely separate entities, with their own separate races. By doing so provides clarity on understanding why it is slick tyres just can’t work in HSC. Those pushing for slicks want to do so to make the smaller cars capable of beating the V8s. But take the V8s out of the equation. What purpose do slick tyres now serve? How do they benefit HSC as a stand-alone class?
