New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

[GD66]

Yeah, good Rodders

The question was, are they slicks, or treaded tyres that are worn down ?

[Kiwiboss]

Thanks Jac, this here is the earliest photo I have managed to find of a car on what appears to be slick tyres. This is from 1973, which coincides with what you said about Moffats GTHO. However, I can't say with 100% certainty if these really are slicks, or just treaded tyres that have worn down?

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Pretty much from about 73/4 onwards(as per JR's Sidchrome Mustang) when Saloons started raced under Schedule E(basically IMSA or Sports Sedans) they went to the wide 14inch rims mostly from F5000 cars hence used whatever tyres the F5000's raced on, im pretty sure they were still treaded? and certainly no radial slicks! also I can remember my Dad sending away worn out wide tires and getting them re-treaded as a slick, the speedway guys done the same except they grooved them, from memory as a kid new wide race tyres were considerably expensive and hard to come by in the day(true Jacmac?).

[AMCO72]

The Minis were obviously able to get slick tyres earlier,
as Collingwood had them for the first, 70/71, and the second season 71/72.

[Steve Holmes]

Pretty much from about 73/4 onwards(as per JR's Sidchrome Mustang) when Saloons started raced under Schedule E(basically IMSA or Sports Sedans) they went to the wide 14inch rims mostly from F5000 cars hence used whatever tyres the F5000's raced on, im pretty sure they were still treaded? and certainly no radial slicks! also I can remember my Dad sending away worn out wide tires and getting them re-treaded as a slick, the speedway guys done the same except they grooved them, from memory as a kid new wide race tyres were considerably expensive and hard to come by in the day(true Jacmac?).

Yep, thats pretty much it Dale. In fact, Formula 5000 cars were running on treaded bias-ply tyres until the early 1970s, its really all there was, and Formula 1 cars would have been the same. When tyre technology proved that a tyre with no tread provided better grip than one WITH tread, all racing tyres pretty much fell into line, be they for single seaters or sedans. It was really just because of the tyre wars taking place, that manufacturers were constantly looking to improve grip.

Here is Graham McRae's McLaren F5000 on Goodyear Bluestreak tyres, the same as the HMC cars, Historic Trans-Am in the US, etc run now!

[Jac Mac]

When I first built the MKII Cortina OSCA car I used rear ( slick ) 15 x 12.5 w from George Beggs F5000 cars ` $30-$50 ea IIRC and some much older 15x 10 intermediates ( Dunlop) from one of the older cars on the front. Was just reading an old tire article that mentioned slicks making inroads to circuit motorsport from 1969 onwards.... gotta remember that saloons took a while for everyone to realise that a wider tire needed a geometry rethink to keep the tread square to the surface for any older stuff. Tires were harder to get, Graeme Lawrence had the Goodyear franchise tied up. Expensive, yes, had to order in advance etc until the import thing freed up.
The slick retreads were crap, tried some at Coronet Peak Hillclimb once, black marks everywhere but bugger all acceleration. Put the GN Begg budget specials back on and went much faster. Biggest worry was finding loose gravel from previous rally guys who have no respect for road width!

Extra, Slick tires were first used by Nascar @ Talledaga in 1969.

[Steve Holmes]

Just a thought for those wiser than me.

So what's available for the Production Grand Touring "GT" cars? Not the sports cars that keep being referred to, but the GT cars as defined by FIA or production class B/C for the Americans. The period correct 2 seater E Types, Corvettes, 240Z's, TR's etc.

In a country where we have a limited pool of period correct cars I would have thought we would be encouraging as many of these to be out there as possible. Not forcing these ones to be moth balled in sheds.

One could argue that these cars need their own grid. But that simply serves to dilute the grids of the classes that they could easily fit in (better fit than in a "sports car" grid).

Would be a shame to see them go. But hey the cars the star right?

Yep, you're right, something similar needs to be done for GT and production sports cars. But who will step up? The same set of MSNZ T&C or Schedule K rules could be used, and undoubtedly the cars would come.

[Howard Wood]

OK, so can someone please give me a sensible answer to the question........'why no slicks'. These are racing cars we are talking about....not road cars. None of them are driven to and from the circuit, except perhaps the Classic Trial cars. .....and they dont need a WOF, so why do they need to be to a WOF standard.

There are plenty of period correct classes which allow a slick tyre, for example the Heritage Touring car class at the festival allow slicks because that is what those cars ran in period. Certainly there are plenty of HSC compliant cars which would have run slicks in period as well. Don't forget the proposed HSC cut off is long after the HMC cut off and well into the slick use era. I think it is something that should be considered, not dismissed because HMC don't run slicks.

[ERC]

Steve, after a challenge put out by the H & C Commission a few years back, regarding the T & C Regs, Chris Browne from Alfa Trofeo and myself went through those regs with a very, very fine toothcomb and suggested various changes which we sincerely believed would encompass 95% of those running cars most of us deem classic, probably without modification and the other 5% may not be too far out either.

Our summary was that T & C had to be sufficiently different from Appendix K & Schedule K to warrant its very existence. The commission did adopt one or two suggestions but overall, the points of issue we had then and still have even now, have not been satisfactorily addressed, as there are obvious philosophical differences on several aspects.

Believing that T & C is somehow the panacea for all decisions and guidelines and is set in stone, is the very reason why so many people do not buy into it and therefore do not accept the validity, or the necessity, for a CoD in its present form, despite the mantra pushed out so often by those who either do not understand some of the issues, or choose to ignore them.

We are going over very old ground here and there are about 200+ drivers locally who are accepted into various 'classic' groups who do NOT have a CoD and will not get one. They are NOT running hot rods but nor are they all 100% T & C compliant, though most are - and whilst the Commission fails to recognise those differences and the real practicalities of running some models, then nothing much will change.

A CoD is still seen as an exclusion mechanism by many - rightly or wrongly, but if anyone really thinks that jumping through the expensive hoops to get one is somehow going to actually add value to a bog standard MGB, Alfa Sud, or E Series BMW, then I am sorry, but they are dreaming.

Thankfully, most regular and successful promoters (eventually) saw the holes in the CoD system and have categorically stated that those non-compliant classes will always be welcomed. Others will accept them at specific meetings only and others demand 100% CoD's. It is a matter of commercial choice for a promoter and with local track costs to run a race meeting at about $12,000, then the harsh commercial realty hits hard, a fact that some still seem to ignore, expecting others to finance their race entry fees. Maybe if promoters sold their grids for a fixed price, some attitudes would change very quickly!

Our stance when we went through was that T & C should be a broad set of rules or guidelines whereby specific groups (such as HMC) could adopt TIGHTER rules if they so desired. Specialised one make groups such as Alfa Trofeo are the real experts in running Alfa's and understand all the issues relating to keeping them running and racing, ditto MG and BMW. Whereas BMW seem to have stepped well outside the true classic mould with some of their cars, there are still plenty of their cars that we would still deem classic - yet they may not conform to the current T & C either.

[Spgeti]

There are plenty of period correct classes which allow a slick tyre, for example the Heritage Touring car class at the festival allow slicks because that is what those cars ran in period. Certainly there are plenty of HSC compliant cars which would have run slicks in period as well. Don't forget the proposed HSC cut off is long after the HMC cut off and well into the slick use era. I think it is something that should be considered, not dismissed because HMC don't run slicks.

I am sorry Howard but Steve's post #31 clarified HSC stance regarding slicks. He summed up the history behind the reasons why. What applies to Group C and A Touring cars does not apply to HSC...different era. Have a look at the overseas historic racing of the era we cover and they all run tyres that are either Treaded Bias Ply or DOT rated radial tyres.

It is time to bring Historic Saloon Racing in this country to match the rest of the world.

The HMC car cut off is 1974 and 3 years difference is seriously not a reason to alter.

The MSNZ defines the cut off dates for what we propose in HSC and we want to work with in those dates.

[Howard Wood]

I am sorry Howard but Steve's post #31 clarified HSC stance regarding slicks. He summed up the history behind the reasons why. What applies to Group C and A Touring cars does not apply to HSC...different era. Have a look at the overseas historic racing of the era we cover and they all run tyres that are either Treaded Bias Ply or DOT rated radial tyres.

It is time to bring Historic Saloon Racing in this country to match the rest of the world.

The HMC car cut off is 1974 and 3 years difference is seriously not a reason to alter.

The MSNZ defines the cut off dates for what we propose in HSC and we want to work with in those dates.

And if that is the regulation, no problem. My point (and Gerald's too I think) was that we should consider the options first rather than just blindly follow other classes regulation. Having set the regulation, the class must enforce it along with the CoD compliance etc or we are back to the Hot Rod situation again. There is a good 1.5 to 2 seconds a lap difference between genuine DoT tyres and either slicks or quasi slicks like the Handcooks.

[AMCO72]

Absolutely my point also Howard. I have been beating my head against a brick wall over this subject of tyres for years as you know. I am only speaking for the Amco mini here, but it was on slicks exclusively for its 2 seasons in 1971/1972, and we have put this to organisers at other events....Manfield, Ruapuna, Teretonga and Highlands Park, and have got dispensation to run on slicks at those meetings.

This is a new class and in my view we dont HAVE to be following other classes slavishly. Now is the time to step back, take a look at what is at stake and perhaps do something about it. We are well into the slick period with these machines and if a cars suspension was designed for them so be it.

[Steve Holmes]

As already said, the HSC rules are based on MSNZ T&C and Schedule K. Nothing else. There are already many cars in NZ built to these rules. The MSNZ rules stipulate:

Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand, or period and
tread pattern correct, bias cross-ply tyres (refer note) may be used.
(ie. road tyres having 1.5mm minimum tread depth across 75% of
the width of the tyre and around the entire circumference). Aspect
ratio is restricted to 50% minimum. The use of semi-slick tyres with
only radial grooves is specifically prohibited.
Note: An example is Dunlop CR65 brand tyres

Really, there is nothing to be gained for the class as a whole to allow either one car, or the entire field, on slick tyres. Although slick tyre technology did begin to arrive within the period HSC has been structured under (pre December 31 1977), the vast majority of these types of cars raced on treaded tyres. When there is ample availability of both DOT radials and treaded bias-ply tyres, why have slicks? It really comes down to wanting a performance gain. If the whole field is on slicks, it negates any performance gain. But, why bother? Slick tyres create extra grip, which then puts greater stress through the drivelines. This is turn creates more unreliability. And for what? Also, slicks have a shorter performance lifespan than treaded tyres, so replacements are required more often, thus increasing costs.

Remember, this is only historic car racing.

Gerald, the photo here shows that sometimes your AMCO Mini did race on treaded tyres. Also, when you say you want to race it on slicks because this is what it raced on in period, I'm guessing you want to race on radial slicks, and not bias-ply slicks? I can virtually guarantee your car didn't race on radial slicks in period. It would have been bias-ply slicks. The technology between the two are quite different, and indeed, a Hoosier treaded bias-ply would be closer in technology to what your car raced on in period than a modern radial slick.

Remember, HSC is never going to be all things for all people. It'll either appeal or it won't. The great thing about New Zealand is that there are so many different classes to choose from. This class only creates a haven for those wanting to build and race T&C and Schedule K cars under MSNZ historic rules. I know I don't speak for everyone here, and people go historic car racing for different reasons. But for many, the appeal in racing a 45 year old car is that it looks, feels, and handles like a 45 year old car.

[ERC]

What you are clearly advocating is 'Historic' racing. No problem.

Where we have fallen down here is a set of rules purporting to be 'Thoroughbred & Classic' - T & C, which is something similar and the main issue which has never been addressed, right from day one, is a literal definition.

We can mix Classic, Thoroughbred and Historic on the track, but the definitions have never been quantified. In fact, I think that you'll find (or when I last bothered looking) that there is absolutely no mention whatever of Thoroughbred in those regulations.

So let's please, stand back and sort out a set of rules and a CoD system that was primarily aimed at Historic Cars, to confirm a NZ provenance and therefore add value, and to offer a playground that was indeed representative of an earlier era.

Don't confuse that with a set of rules for Classic cars, often of a much lower value, where replicas (Cooper S, Lotus Cortina, TR7 V8, MG BV8, Capri Perana) are welcomed and encouraged and the rules are a little bit more realistic in enabling these cars to run. They may have been constructed recently, out of age related major components but they have no history, other than the one they are creating, year by year.

Add Thoroughbred, where the make is enough to bestow this title - Ferrari, Maserati, Aston Martin, Porsche etc. and we might be making progress.

But please, all have a place in the sport and any series will develop to cater for those needs so if a series organisation elects to include or exclude a specific sector, that is up to them. Some people seem so strangled with rules and regulations and eligibility that they defeat their own objects. A car is either pre 1977 or it isn't. If it is built to represent a 1977 car, different issue. If it is a 1992 Thoroughbred, so be it.

[AMCO72]

I think some mischieveous person has photoshopped my tyres !!!!!!!

Seriously, it may be 'only Historic racing', but it is a race track we are competing on, and NO ONE wants to tour round at the back of the field. If for example, we were just out there having fun, which most of us are, there are cars in the HMC grid whos owners seem hell bent on cranking more and more horsepower out of them.......WHY....HP costs $$$$$$$ Perhaps it is to keep up with, and beat the pesky Australians, and if this is the case I say go for it !!!!! Theyre all, or most of them seem to be falling into this trap. And the 400hp cars are not the ones going over to Oz to compete.

A couple of Festivals ago I had a chat with one or two of the tail-end Charlies in the HMC races, and they all expressed amazement at how fast the front runners were compared to them with their miserable 400hp. needless to say some of these racers have never appeared again.......it is all just too hard. What I am saying is that I am sick and tired of drivers spouting the old story......the cars are the stars....yes....but so is the ego of some drivers, where being on the podium is very important. I dont have a problem with performance enhancing tricks, but please dont pretend otherwise.

Now I know that I am going to get shot down here, but I dont care. I know what I have seen and heard and I am sticking to my story.What has this got to do with this thread.......it is that it is 'only historic racing'....yes, but it is as competitive as any sport, maybe more so, and drivers are always looking for an advantage no matter how small. And if you dont think it is competitive, I suggest you get in a car and try for yourself.......I think you will be amazed.

By the way.......going back to the Amco Mini tyres. I am not sure what these are. A 10 inch CR65 has a much narrower tread than this.....could they be a slick with some radial grooves in them ?? I will ask Rod when I next see him.

[AMCO72]

I think some mischieveous person has photoshopped my tyres !!!!!!!

Seriously, it may be 'only Historic racing', but it is a race track we are competing on, and NO ONE wants to tour round at the back of the field. If for example, we were just out there having fun, which most of us are, there are cars in the HMC grid whos owners seem hell bent on cranking more and more horsepower out of them.......WHY....HP costs $$$$$$$ Perhaps it is to keep up with, and beat the pesky Australians, and if this is the case I say go for it !!!!! Theyre all, or most of them seem to be falling into this trap. And the 400hp cars are not the ones going over to Oz to compete.

A couple of Festivals ago I had a chat with one or two of the tail-end Charlies in the HMC races, and they all expressed amazement at how fast the front runners were compared to them with their miserable 400hp. needless to say some of these racers have never appeared again.......it is all just too hard. What I am saying is that I am sick and tired of drivers spouting the old story......the cars are the stars....yes....but so is the ego of some drivers, where being on the podium is very important. I dont have a problem with performance enhancing tricks, but please dont pretend otherwise.

Now I know that I am going to get shot down here, but I dont care. I know what I have seen and heard and I am sticking to my story.What has this got to do with this thread.......it is that it is 'only historic racing'....yes, but it is as competitive as any sport, maybe more so, and drivers are always looking for an advantage no matter how small. And if you dont think it is competitive, I suggest you get in a car and try for yourself.......I think you will be amazed.

By the way.......going back to the Amco Mini tyres. I am not sure what these are. A CR65 has a much narrower tread than this.....could they be a slick with some radial grooves in them ?? I will ask Rod when I next see him.

[GPBK]

By the way.......going back to the Amco Mini tyres. I am not sure what these are. A CR65 has a much narrower tread than this.....could they be a slick with some radial grooves in them ?? I will ask Rod when I next see him.[/QUOTE]

[AMCO72]

Very good. I would like to see a comparison with a 10 inch Dunlop slick. What size wheels are these for. Is just the small one a 10 inch.

[GPBK]

This is only a reference guide for Dunlop Tread patterns of the day. I know that the 65 and 81 patterns were available for the 10" but outside of that I'm guessing.

[AMCO72]

No doubt about it. The CR65 tread on the Mini was great. Had a half worn set on the car when we bought it in 1984, and even though they were old and hard were still streets ahead of the current stock of DOT radials.

[Howard Wood]

No doubt about it. The CR65 tread on the Mini was great. Had a half worn set on the car when we bought it in 1984, and even though they were old and hard were still streets ahead of the current stock of DOT radials.

There are 3 reasons why I think this issue should be considered, discussed then once decided we can all leave it alone:

1. Anyone leaning really hard on DoT tyres will tell you that tyre life/ temperature is an issue. An issue made worse by small tyre/ wheel size (eg AMCO Mini), high horsepower (ask any front runners in the BMW Class B) and high temperatures. I have cut out a brand new set of 4 DoT tyres in one January Taupo meeting (3 races).

2. These cars DID run on slicks both here in the BNSW series etc and also Group 2 ETCC. Getting a comparable DoT tyre size can actually be quite hard as witnessed by the Haliday Escort and AMCO Mini (especially in 10 inch).

3. There is an opportunity to equalize the lap times of the HMC/ HSC field which will only add to the spectator appeal of these classes. For those HMC drivers who do not want the "Star" quality of their cars to be diminished, the finish line is always at the end of the straight anyway!

Before anyone assumes that this argument is about personal advantage, unless my current plans fall over, I will not be running in the class for the immediate future.