New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

[ERC]

ERC Series.... Copes well enough with all sports and GTs and we have or had examples of all those mentioned!

Stewart has parked the E Type in favour of something that is at least different; Tony R was welcomed with the Corvette at a time when there was no other suitable class; we still have 240Zs; over the years we have had TR3 (Bert Dove), several TR6's and a TR5 - plus Spitfires and still have TR7 V8s, so those that want to run, can and do.

Adding extra classes to suit a minority will never work until that minority is large enough to be a viable grid in its own right. My sympathy is with those with smaller open sports cars who feel intimidated when sharing the track with large saloons, but as at today, sports cars are a minority, which just reflects the sales over the years - and the increasing values of those Daimlers, Austin Healeys, Morgans, Lotus' etc.

Production GT has always been a bone of contention in some quarters, so an MG B Sports and an MG BGT from the same production line is acceptable, but a 240Z Datsun with no open version has always been cast as an oddball. Jaguar XJS ran in period as saloon cars yet to most of us, they should surely be classed as a GT or as an open sports?

We shouldn't get too hung up on names and categories and we learned years ago (not with 100% acceptance I might add) that speed grouping by car/driver made far more sense than bodyshell type. For example, this enabled AMCO Senior to race in one category and AMCO Junior in another! Both grids were therefore enhanced.

Classic Trial still offer the opportunity to put totally standard cars out on track, but even their numbers seem to have flattened out, so there are opportunities for just about everyone to run, if they choose to do so.

Advancing age of drivers and rising costs may also have an effect. Why no Seniors discount on a race licence? A high licence cost and a $50 levy to MSNZ at each meeting are rapidly pushing me to race retirement, as I can get almost as much fun on a track day for a fraction of the cost - and no red tape.

[crunch]

Nothing needs to be changed, just apply the current MSNZ tyre regulations under Appendix Six, Historic Competition, Section Five - Schedule T&C 3.13 – Tires.

Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand, or period and
tread pattern correct, bias cross-ply tyres (refer note) may be used.
(ie. road tyres having 1.5mm minimum tread depth across 75% of
the width of the tyre and around the entire circumference). Aspect
ratio is restricted to 50% minimum. The use of semi-slick tyres with
only radial grooves is specifically prohibited.
Note: An example is Dunlop CR65 brand tyres

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/sites/default/files/motorsport/manual/Live%2035%20App%206.05%20Sch%20T%26C_0.pdf

Dale M

Agree

[AMCO72]

Your last paragraph ERC hits the nail on the head as far as I am concerned also. Getting old and buggered isnt encouraging me out any more, but a track day is good.......no pressure.....go out and do some skids at your speed without all these hot-shots showing how bad you are in a racing situation. Am all for it.

I would have thought that Classic Trial would have suited a lot of people.......apparently not. One step up from a track day......'if they choose to do so'......how true !!

[crunch]

Thanks to Bruce and Bill for taking up the challenge, many of us believe this is the only direction "Historic" motorsport should be heading.

Although there is potentially a lot more diversity of cars, sizes and allowable modification levels available in this class compared to say HMC type cars, ruling on what is acceptable or not is actually relatively simple. Comply with either (and for my money, preferably) Schedule K where only Period Homologated modifications specific to that Make, Model and Year of car are allowed or T&C which is a more generic set of regulations covering a range of cars. Either route produces a similar performance level and period correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a saloon is also well documented and although Datsun 240/260 owners might think it is unfair, in period these restrictions/ definitions applied so there should be no surprises.

Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.

Agree as well !

[crunch]

I would have thought that Classic Trial would have suited a lot of people.......apparently not. One step up from a track day......'if they choose to do so'......how true !!

I would have thought so too. It's sad that people don't actually take this opportunity, maybe it's because it's not understood clearly?

[AMCO72]

Dont think Dunlop make a CR65 tyre for a 10inch rim any more. They even stopped manufacture of a 10 inch slick, but this may have started again.....

[Spgeti]

Gerald,
I am at the moment discussing tyres with Cardwells. Hoosier make a Vintage Bias Treaded Tyre for historic racing in a 165/70x10 and is what the Historic Minis race on in Aussie. This is not a slick.

I will come back re this once I have answers.

Cheers

[Spgeti]

Thanks to Bruce and Bill for taking up the challenge, many of us believe this is the only direction "Historic" motorsport should be heading.

Although there is potentially a lot more diversity of cars, sizes and allowable modification levels available in this class compared to say HMC type cars, ruling on what is acceptable or not is actually relatively simple. Comply with either (and for my money, preferably) Schedule K where only Period Homologated modifications specific to that Make, Model and Year of car are allowed or T&C which is a more generic set of regulations covering a range of cars. Either route produces a similar performance level and period correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a saloon is also well documented and although Datsun 240/260 owners might think it is unfair, in period these restrictions/ definitions applied so there should be no surprises.

Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Howard.

I plan to come up to Ice Breaker to meet a few of you and perhaps drag Bill up with me.

Cheers

Bruce

[Steve Holmes]

Thanks to Bruce and Bill for taking up the challenge, many of us believe this is the only direction "Historic" motorsport should be heading.

Although there is potentially a lot more diversity of cars, sizes and allowable modification levels available in this class compared to say HMC type cars, ruling on what is acceptable or not is actually relatively simple. Comply with either (and for my money, preferably) Schedule K where only Period Homologated modifications specific to that Make, Model and Year of car are allowed or T&C which is a more generic set of regulations covering a range of cars. Either route produces a similar performance level and period correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a saloon is also well documented and although Datsun 240/260 owners might think it is unfair, in period these restrictions/ definitions applied so there should be no surprises.

Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.

You've absolutely hit the nail on the head Howard.

As for tyres, its actually very simple. Dale quoted the tyre ruling in Post #14; either a road legal DOT radial, or a period correct bias ply treaded tyre:

Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand, or period and
tread pattern correct, bias cross-ply tyres (refer note) may be used.
(ie. road tyres having 1.5mm minimum tread depth across 75% of
the width of the tyre and around the entire circumference). Aspect
ratio is restricted to 50% minimum. The use of semi-slick tyres with
only radial grooves is specifically prohibited.
Note: An example is Dunlop CR65 brand tyres

There is actually a massive availability on sizes available in the bias-ply, for everything from Minis right through to the HMC V8s. Hoosier cover most bases. This is because historic racing is so huge internationally, so most makes and models of cars that HMC/HSC covers are catered for. Cardwell Racing Supplies can get almost everything required, and the prices are very reasonable. The only issues so far have been for cars such as John Dennehey's Halliday Escort, with its very wide 13" diameter wheels. John had Roger Kraus Racing in the US groove a set for the Escort.

[AMCO72]

OK, so can someone please give me a sensible answer to the question........'why no slicks'. These are racing cars we are talking about....not road cars. None of them are driven to and from the circuit, except perhaps the Classic Trial cars. .....and they dont need a WOF, so why do they need to be to a WOF standard.

[Steve Holmes]

OK, lots of good quality discussion here, lets keep it up. There have been several questions regarding tyres. As stated above, the HMC and HSC tyre options are either a road legal DOT radial, or treaded bias-ply racing tyre. The reason for this is to give people options, and really, there is no performance advantage between one or the other.

In regards to slicks, these are not acceptable for either HMC or HSC. It should be noted that MSNZ T&C and Schedule K rules for pre-1977 historic saloon cars only list road legal DOT or treaded bias-ply tyres in their rules. These are the rules both HMC and HSC are built on. HSC rules allows people to race either a T&C or Schedule K car, under MSNZ rules.

In period, during the late 1960s through early 1970s, ALL race cars, whether they were open wheels or saloons, were fitted with treaded bias-ply racing tyres. These are essentially the exact same tyres as written into the MSNZ/HMC/HSC rules. Several companies produce these, including Hoosier, Goodyear and Avon. They're a period correct treaded bias-ply, as used on all race cars in the late 1960s through early 1970s.

There were no slick tyres being produced at this time. In fact, slick tyres didn't really begin appearing until around 1973. But, these were a bias-ply slick, NOT a radial slick, and there is a HUGE difference between the two.

For the sake of keeping things simple, keeping everyone in the same playing field, keeping within the rules as set down by MSNZ under T&C and Schedule K for pre-1977 historic saloons, HMC and HSC only allows the use of road legal DOT radials, or treaded bias-ply tyres. Essentially, HMC is about racing period correct cars on period correct tyres.

And remember, this isn't some crazy New Zealand rule, this is how historic racing deals with the tyre situation all over the world.

Here are some nice period examples:

[Steve Holmes]

[Steve Holmes]

[AMCO72]

Steve, as ususal, a well researched and sensible answer. Thank you very much. Right, now I/we can move on to other aspects of HSC......I am sure Dale and Co will be relieved.

I will just go and have a cup of tea, while I think up more stuff to post !!!!!!!

[Jac Mac]

[color="#0000FF"]First 'Slicks' I remember seeing on larger cars was Wigram January 1973 when Moffats GTHO used them in the final BNSW race of the day and won which would suggest that he also had used them in OZ in 1972. Did not take long for the other E49's to get slicks for similar races from then on. Tullochs Camaro had Goodyear slicks from day one, but I think they all had to revert to CR65 Dunlops for one other series ( Same as those on Camaro above ). Ex Sprague- Monaghan- Gillard XW GTHO was fitted with Globes & Slicks in 73/74 IIRC.[/color]

[Steve Holmes]

First 'Slicks' I remember seeing on larger cars was Wigram January 1973 when Moffats GTHO used them in the final BNSW race of the day and won which would suggest that he also had used them in OZ in 1972. Did not take long for the other E49's to get slicks for similar races from then on. Tullochs Camaro had Goodyear slicks from day one, but I think they all had to revert to CR65 Dunlops for one other series ( Same as those on Camaro above ). Ex Sprague- Monaghan- Gillard XW GTHO was fitted with Globes & Slicks in 73/74 IIRC.

Thanks Jac, this here is the earliest photo I have managed to find of a car on what appears to be slick tyres. This is from 1973, which coincides with what you said about Moffats GTHO. However, I can't say with 100% certainty if these really are slicks, or just treaded tyres that have worn down?

[Steve Holmes]

Steve, as ususal, a well researched and sensible answer. Thank you very much. Right, now I/we can move on to other aspects of HSC......I am sure Dale and Co will be relieved.

I will just go and have a cup of tea, while I think up more stuff to post !!!!!!!

Thanks Gerald.

[GD66]

I can't say with 100% certainty if these really are slicks, or just treaded tyres that have worn down

Rod G would probably know, as they appear to be Firestones and he was working for them in those days I think.

[Spgeti]

[color="#0000FF"]First 'Slicks' I remember seeing on larger cars was Wigram January 1973 when Moffats GTHO used them in the final BNSW race of the day and won which would suggest that he also had used them in OZ in 1972. Did not take long for the other E49's to get slicks for similar races from then on. Tullochs Camaro had Goodyear slicks from day one, but I think they all had to revert to CR65 Dunlops for one other series ( Same as those on Camaro above ). Ex Sprague- Monaghan- Gillard XW GTHO was fitted with Globes & Slicks in 73/74 IIRC.[/color]

Inky's Camaro appeared at the 1975 GP meeting at Puke. I have a photo of the next meeting at Bay Park and it had slicks on.

[Rod Grimwood]

Rod G would probably know, as they appear to be Firestones and he was working for them in those days I think.

They are Firestone on The Mustang