New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Shooting the bull on historic motor racing and motorsport history.
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Steve Holmes
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Steve Holmes »

AMCO72 wrote:Steve, your comment, amongst others that said....'CAMS controlled and POLICED' historic catergory sounds a bit ominous!! Is everyone in Australia in love with CAMS as much as folk here in NZ. When we start using words like 'policed' I get very nervous. Easy to be wise now and say we in NZ should have followed Australia's lead. We could, with some will, have a similar breakdown of classes here, but is going to upset a few people. But then too-bad.......someone is going to get upset no matter what you do......even if you do nothing !!!!!


Hi Gerald, I would say CAMS is viewed with about as much love as MSNZ is in New Zealand! When using the term 'policed', its really just that. There are a set of rules, and racers build cars to those rules. And CAMS are present at events to make sure nobody is cheating. Its much like the way historic racing is run in the UK and Europe.

As for the rules themselves, there is no way they could ever be adopted in NZ now. That will never happen. I believe Appendix J are very similar to FIA Appendix K Group 2 rules for pre-1965 touring cars that are in widespread use throughout the UK and Europe, and several cars have been bought and sold between Australia and UK/Europe. Likewise, Australian competitors have been able to take their cars to race in the UK/Europe.

Group Nc rules are not 100% period correct, and are very much focused on Australian history. Only cars that contested an ATCC race through to the end of 1972, or contested Series Production races are eligible. Furthermore, the rules themselves fall somewhere between the Improved Production (think Allan Moffats Mustang, Norm Beecheys Monaro etc), and Series Production (the bog-standard cars such as the Falcon GTHOs and Torana XU1s etc that raced at Bathurst through until 1972) as a sort of happy medium. So for example, a 1969 Mustang is eligible, because Allan Moffat raced one of these in period, but a 1970 Mustang is not, because nobody raced one of these. Obviously this would never work in NZ.

Are the rules universally loved by all historic racers in Australia? Definitely not. No matter what the class, be it Formula 1, NASCAR, V8 Supercars, Singsong Utes, or historic racing, you'll always have people who want more from the rules. But, the CAMS Group N historic touring car rules are extremely clear. Its very black and white. The rules are the rules, everyone just accepts them and gets on with it. No one person has to worry about policing the rules like class representatives do in NZ. Its all done by CAMS. The cars themselves have a virtually unlimited life-span, because the rules don't change, and therefore, the cars don't really evolve. The Jaguar pictured above is a prime example. So this helps control costs.

No, its not the perfect scenario, but it does work very well in other countries.
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Kiwiboss »

Here is few pictures from yesterdays TACCOC one day meeting at Pukekohe, great support from the HSC group giving several HMC cars a hard time in the wet conditions at the start of the day with Bob Hyslop qualifying 4th amongst the fast HMC cars!! many thanks to Bruce Dyer making the trip all the way up from Fielding to help gather interest in the HSC cars as he is now the HSC director with support from myself, Tony Roberts and Steve Holmes. Another couple more on-board including Tony Herbert in his beautiful Alfa, Tony was one of the original instigators of the COD system way back and was very interested in seeing this has been picked it up in both HMC and HSC.

Pat Excel's beautiful 105E Anglia, Tony Herbert's Alfa, Mike Coory's Datsun 240K and Nev "Hillsy" Hills Mk 2 Escort.
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Kiwiboss »

From left Mike Coory, Pat Excel and wife and Hillsy Hills make there plan of attack on the V8 HMC cars!!
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Steve Holmes
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

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Kiwiboss wrote:Here is few pictures from yesterdays TACCOC one day meeting at Pukekohe, great support from the HSC group giving several HMC cars a hard time in the wet conditions at the start of the day with Bob Hyslop qualifying 4th amongst the fast HMC cars!! many thanks to Bruce Dyer making the trip all the way up from Fielding to help gather interest in the HSC cars as he is now the HSC director with support from myself, Tony Roberts and Steve Holmes. Another couple more on-board including Tony Herbert in his beautiful Alfa, Tony was one of the original instigators of the COD system way back and was very interested in seeing this has been picked it up in both HMC and HSC.

Pat Excel's beautiful 105E Anglia, Tony Herbert's Alfa, Mike Coory's Datsun 240K and Nev "Hillsy" Hills Mk 2 Escort.


I think this was my favorite car of the whole event.

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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Grant Sprague »

Sounds good ...... & great info .... tell me pls how does this mk 1 BDG go in lap times compared to the front running V8 ,s
Thanks guys ..... Grant
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Kiwiboss »

Grant Sprague wrote:Sounds good ...... & great info .... tell me pls how does this mk 1 BDG go in lap times compared to the front running V8 ,s
Thanks guys ..... Grant


They were quick in the day so they'll be quick now and as always Grant, depends on whos driving it :)
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by AMCO72 »

Surprisingly, there is nothing on MyLaps for this event.?????????/ So Grant and I would like an answer to the question......what were this cars times round Puke, and for comparison some times for the HMC cars would be nice. A fair question I think......the driver is immaterial......the time for this driver would be fine. Thanks.
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Steve Holmes
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Steve Holmes »

I assume Grant is referring to the Don Halliday Escort owned by John Dennehy as pictured on the previous page? This car wasn't at Pukekohe on the weekend.
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Grant Sprague »

Thank you Gerald & Dale ....... good point ...from both ..... no disrespect to any drivers ... at all ...but would be good to get a back to back ......say for eg Dale driving the Mustang then driving the escort . [comparison] ... yep they were pretty close mind you Pauls was FVC,,,,if you can get the Escorts in between the front running V8,s that would be a BIG BONUS for the class .... & woooow would it take off
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Grant Sprague »

Steve, I am trying to get a handle on a BDG time difference to the front running V8,s .... I have not collected enough info to find the answer , that mk 1 here above its BDG ???? [not sure] but reads that way
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Kiwiboss »

Grant Sprague wrote:Thank you Gerald & Dale ....... good point ...from both ..... no disrespect to any drivers ... at all ...but would be good to get a back to back ......say for eg Dale driving the Mustang then driving the escort . [comparison] ... yep they were pretty close mind you Pauls was FVC,,,,if you can get the Escorts in between the front running V8,s that would be a BIG BONUS for the class .... & woooow would it take off


Grant, the V8's were always faster back in the day under perfect conditions, its just they often broke allowing the small cars to take advantage and been NZ with our flip flop weather conditions add a little of that wet stuff and the small cars were GONE. I actually had a race like that at one for the Festivals with Angus Fogg in the Amco mini and the crowd luv'd it so like any racing its really "Race by Race" come what may
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Spgeti »

Well what a great day of racing and friendship. The weather did not stop the enjoyment and my thanks goes out to all the drivers of HMC/HSC for their respect of the conditions and no damage and only huge smiles. Take a bow guy's.

We had a great field of all sorts. John Ure in his beautiful Series I XJ12 SWB....one of 700 odd made, Pat Excell out in his 1500 GT Anglia for the first time at Pukekohe...he has still got that grin from ear to ear. Mike Coory in the thundering Datsun 240K, Hillsy in the rapid Mk 11 Escort trying hard to keep the V8s honest followed by John Sampson in his beautifully prepared Capri RS2600. Bob Hyslop wanted a bit more wet to show off his skills in the slippery stuff in the historic RX2. Ken and Peter Northin were hard at it in their immaculate Mk1 and Mk11 Escorts. Darron Curphey was doing double duty in the flying Fiat 131R and enjoyed being out amongst the big boys.

Thanks guys for your support and commitment.

Cheers
Bruce
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Steve Holmes
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Steve Holmes »

Historic Saloon Cars look to be heading to Manfield in 2016, with plans to run alongside Historic Muscle Cars at the 2016 MG Classic. Lots of time to prepare, drum up interest, and work on putting on a great show for the punters.
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Max Headroom »

AMCO72 wrote:Surprisingly, there is nothing on MyLaps for this event.?????????/ So Grant and I would like an answer to the question......what were this cars times round Puke, and for comparison some times for the HMC cars would be nice. A fair question I think......the driver is immaterial......the time for this driver would be fine. Thanks.


From my laps, over the last few meetings at Puke & Hampton Downs, the top HMC cars are doing 1:15's and the U3L HSC are doing 1:19 / 1:20's You can throw a blanket over me, Jonh Dennehy, Hillsy and John Sampson, depends on the day who is quicker, but we are all usually within a second of each other. A couple of the HMC cars are in the 1:13's at HD. So I'm guessing that's similar to back in the day when I watched these races as a 5 -6 yr old at Puke on the long back straight. May have been a bigger difference then due to the HMC cars running off down the long straight. Wet conditions it's almost a level playing field, probably a bit in favour of the HSC cars.
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

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Max Headroom wrote:From my laps, over the last few meetings at Puke & Hampton Downs, the top HMC cars are doing 1:15's and the U3L HSC are doing 1:19 / 1:20's You can throw a blanket over me, Jonh Dennehy, Hillsy and John Sampson, depends on the day who is quicker, but we are all usually within a second of each other. A couple of the HMC cars are in the 1:13's at HD. So I'm guessing that's similar to back in the day when I watched these races as a 5 -6 yr old at Puke on the long back straight. May have been a bigger difference then due to the HMC cars running off down the long straight. Wet conditions it's almost a level playing field, probably a bit in favour of the HSC cars.


Great post Kerry, you pretty much got it summed up!! Sure the faster HMC cars are up front but the same can be done with a MK1 Escort if one wanted to spend the time and $$$, I always thought "Cubic Capacity" won out but as John McKechnie has posted "Cubic Money" beats out any day, guess I've been doing it all wrong, LOL.

Anyway, the attached pic shows what both HMC and HSC are all about, recreating our fabulous Saloon car history, and our Hoosier bias tyre gives the same slipage angle as Dennis and Paul have going on here. (Courtesy of Facebook, and whom ever owns this pic)

PS: I always luv looking at he safety fencing back then, and the cars weren't slugs either!!

Dale M
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by John McKechnie »

Johnny Riley found that using the rear end of a Camaro was the way to gate crash the spectators.
Entries are now open for the Historic Tin Top class TACCOC Nov 1st and the chance to see John Dennehy and Glenn Ellingham in their similar cars with the same angles.
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

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John McKechnie wrote:Johnny Riley found that using the rear end of a Camaro was the way to gate crash the spectators.
Entries are now open for the Historic Tin Top class TACCOC Nov 1st and the chance to see John Dennehy and Glenn Ellingham in their similar cars with the same angles.


I am coming up to the TACCOC Summer Meeting to support John and Dave.

looking forward to catching up with a few more of the HMC/HSC guys.

Any of you that want to catch up with me send me a PM or email mailto:?subject=&body=.
I have a couple meetings planned but will make time for others.

Bill Ritchie and I will also be at this years MG Classic at Manfeild on the 14/15th November to support any of the HMC/HSC guys as well.

I have today just viewed Julian Hardy's beautiful little Datsun 1200SSS who is joining us and looking forward to being at Manfeild in 2016.
Julian's car has a COD as well.

Cheers
Bruce
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by John McKechnie »

Look forward to seeing you again Bruce.
Just to remind everyone again about this-
Sunday November 1 TACCOC has given Historic Sports Sedans a grid- 3 races.
We have invited Historic Muscle cars to come along and run with us to enjoy the day
That is why I am unofficially calling this a Historic Tin Top class.
Great for newcomers ,those that didnt make the IceBreaker and some , like myself, who didnt make it through to the end of the day.
Get some skids in, have fun, and make sure the car is right for next Jan.
Contact TACCOC to make sure you are entered.
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Steve Holmes
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Steve Holmes »

Latest addition to Historic Saloon Cars is Julian Hardey's 1974 Datsun 1200SSS. Julian has owned the car since 1998. Its built to T&C rules, and has COD.

It runs an A12 motor to 1,380cc, twin 45 Dellortos, 13" wheels etc. A neat little car. These were hugely popular race cars in period. Rarely seen these days.

Julian Hardy's Danny 1200.jpg
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Steve Holmes
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Re: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

Post by Steve Holmes »

Great to have Rayden Smith confirm today he plans to enter the 2016 Gulf Festival with Historic Saloon Cars.

This is another hugely important piece of New Zealand motorsport history, being the Willment Racing Escort twin-cam purchased by Jim Carney out of the UK in 1969 for the young Jim Richards to race. JR was a sensation in this car, which really helped put him on the map, and greatly increased his future prospects. He won the 4.2 NZ Saloon Car Championship at least once with this car, battling most years with Don Halliday in the Escort owned now by John Dennehy (as featured earlier in this thread). An awesome piece of kit.

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