Old Race Tracks

[Ray Bell]

I went through all that stuff and saw no front brakes...

A transmission brake and, in the case of the EX3 and L76 models, external contracting rear brakes. Internal expanding rears came on the 3-litre models built from the end of 1913.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Oldfart
It was probably a whole lot more windy when they raced there too!

Windy? I don't see the relevance.

[Oldfart]

Windy? I don't see the relevance.

Windy road (not wind) sharper corners, steeper climbs than the smoothed out roads a century later?

[Oldfart]

I went through all that stuff and saw no front brakes...

A transmission brake and, in the case of the EX3 and L76 models, external contracting rear brakes. Internal expanding rears came on the 3-litre models built from the end of 1913.

OK, on Grandprixhistory link I posted, first photo after the one of Zuccarelli at the drawing board, 4 cars lined up, if those aren't front brakes then they carried pie plates around
Next photo #5 front brakes?
Small photos at the bottom, car #5 one with OS on a signboard, maybe at Coupe de La Sarthe (which we now know as Circuit Le Mans) front brakes?
Next one, possibly same corner but exit, car 19 brakes?
Last photo, side on, brakes?
I guess they could be later photos than the site says, but they tally with the entry list.
There is so much conflicting information on this topic though it's very hard to make any definitive statement I believe, without any chance of being disagreed with.
According to "Blue Blood" by Serge Bellu Peugeot used front brakes in 1914 and those cars went to the US.

[Oldfart]

Ken, sent you a message.

[Allan]

"Winding" perhaps.

[Ray Bell]

All the pictures with front brakes are the 1914 models...

Right click on the photo of the four cars lined up and click on 'inspect element' and you'll see in the title to the photo there that it's the 1914 Peugeot team.

Then you'll see that the front of these cars is narrower than the ones from the 1913 races, and the American races at San Diego and elsewhere as shown by Ken.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Allan
"Winding" perhaps.

These roads have not changed signficantly, other than being sealed.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9mcTulLtNrY/ ... FsmNEW.png

Except, of course, at places where modern 'incursions' have re-routed them or cut them short. This has happened at the 'sharp' end of the Amiens circuit, which you can check on Google Earth, working NW from Boves.

[khyndart in CA]

Whatever the braking it must have been scary coming down the 2 mile Rosecrans straight at speeds approaching 100 MPH and making the first corner to go up the hill back in 1915.
I have a special memory of rear wheel brakes when my mate took me to the Mount in his early all drum Mini and on the way home over the Kaimas it was raining and every time he braked the car went all over the road so we stopped and put two small vise grips on the front brake hoses and with me applying some handbrake to take up the rear brake adjustment we made it back in time for him to help his dad with the milking ! (The brakes worked great'.)


Ken H

[Ray Bell]

Tyre technology at the time would have been no help either...

Brave men.

[khyndart in CA]

Here is a listing of components on the 1915 race cars. (Even with TIRE brands !)

Ken H

[Roger Dowding]

Here is a listing of components on the 1915 race cars. (Even with TIRE brands !)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]66913[/ATTACH]



Ken H

A few names that are still around many that are not ;
Splitdorf, Raja
Some of the cars - specials " I built my own "
Brilliant, Ken H

[khyndart in CA]

I just had to add to the Peugeot brake questions and put this information in.

" "There were two EX3 type 1913 Grand Prix Peugeots in the U.S. after May 1914. Peugeot sent the two cars (i.e. Goux's and Boillot's) over for the 1914 Indianapolis 500, and sold them both after the race. One went to Kauffman and the other was purchased by Erbes." ( From John Glenn Printz )

The Bob Burman (Erbes) Peugeot # 9 at San Diego in 1915 was the # 7 car that French driver Georges Boillot drove at the 1914 Indianapolis which was a 1913 EX3 Peugeot with an L56 engine..

This photo clearly shows only a brake drum at the rear which was a feature to come back and haunt the racing fraternity in 1916.

In 1914 this ($ 7 million beauty ) was built by Peugeot and had drum brakes all around.

This Bonhams site has some good Peugeot information from that period.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24733/lot/408/





( Ken H)

[khyndart in CA]

As quoted from the above site;
" In January 1915 Bob Burman destroyed the engine of his Peugeot L56 in a race at Point Loma (San Diego), California. Peugeot declined on account of the war to provide a replacement. Burman turned to Harry Miller in Los Angeles, then the ranking genius in racing engine carburetion, not only to repair the bits and pieces of his shattered Peugeot but to configure it to the new 300 cubic inch limitation.

In the process of doing the almost-impossible – delivering a competitive 300 cubic inch engine to Burman in time for Indianapolis – Miller and Fred Offenhauser succeeded also in examining the innermost workings of the Peugeot L56. A 50-year history of Miller, Offenhauser and Meyer-Drake dual overhead camshaft engines followed."

[khyndart in CA]

Some more information from various sources regarding Bob Burman and his 1913 Peugeot with a mostly new engine.

" The AAA contest board was reducing the displacement rule to 300 cu. in., and Burman was in a quandary. He took the car to Harry Miller’s shop in Los Angeles. Reportedly, he paid $4000 (probably more than he paid for the car to begin with) for a rebuild to meet the new displacement rule. A new engine was created from a few parts of the Peugeot engine in collaboration with Miller and Fred Offenhauser, Miller’s machinist, both well-known names in racing now. This engine was the first to use Miller’s “Alloyanum” lightweight pistons. Miller was using the alloy to make carburetor bodies, and coincidentally, most of the Point Loma race cars used Miller’s Marvel carburetor. The success of this engine generated a lot of interest and was the start of Miller’s and Offenhauser’s racing engine reputations.
In April 1916 he raced in Corona, California. The town had a three mile long, 70ft wide circular main street called the Grand Boulevard than ran around the city center. Races were held there in 1913 and 1914 with great success. After a break of some 18 months a third race was organised in 1916.

Corona is a city between Anaheim (Disneyland) and Riverside in California. Today the circular street can still be clearly seen although surrounded by freeways etc.

2020 Google map.

Looking away from the start line area. (2020)

The Corona 1916 finish line area in 2020.

The same area in 1916 after the racing was and crowds of perhaps 100,000 had to make their way home !


(Ken H..)

[Oldfart]

Alloyanum, an interesting name that reminded me of being told about the front suspension arms on the Healey (before Austin). They were made from "pistominium" according to the Healey family. When I asked what that was, "melted down Merlin pistons" was the reply.

[Ray Bell]

Not as good as the opening of The World's Fastest Indian.

"One of Ford, two of Chevy..."

[khyndart in CA]

The 1916 race continued;

Bob Burman and Eric Schrader in their # 7 Peugeot before the start of the fateful race.
With the Miller built engine it was the fastest car on the track but it still only had rear wheel braking.

A scene during the race showing how close the crowd was to the track.

" Burman had led most of the race but about 12 laps from the finish, the rear wheel of his Peugeot collapsed, sending it crashing off the track at over 100 mph. The car hit a parked spectator car and rolled into the crowd. Burman and his riding mechanic, Erick Schroeder(Schrader), were thrown out and landed nearly 50 feet away. "

" Schroeder died instantly along with William Speer, a track steward. A number of other spectators were also injured. Burman was taken to Riverside hospital where he died shortly after. The tragedy prompted his friends, Barney Oldfield and Harry Arminius Miller, to join forces to design and build a racing car that incorporated a roll cage inside a protective streamlined driver's compartment. The result was the famous Goldern Submarine."

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2014/0 ... -submarine
(The story of a "Golden Submarine" replica with 4 wheel brakes.)

" The events at Corona in 1916 effectively ended racing away from the coast in Southern California for almost 40 years."



(Ken H)

[Ray Bell]

Superb history lesson, Ken...

Thank you for that. I knew nothing of any of this. I guess my reading has always been more Euro-centric, Australian and some Indianapolis. Even Savannah's big races have required specific searching.

[khyndart in CA]

We had a family gathering last weekend and reminisced about how we were in Spain 10 rears ago at the time of Easter. 2011.
We stayed in Barcelona before driving to meet our daughter in Pamplona as she walked the famous religious hike across Spain known as the Camino de Santiago. clip by Peter Windsor
While in Barcelona I made sure to at least drive the Montjuic Circuit which was closed to major races after a tragic accident in 1975.
It was known as a fast but dangerous circuit but to some such as Chris Amon it was one of their favorite tracks to drive on.
I was too busy driving to capture any decent photos but I found this clip by Peter Windsor which ably gives the history and sights of this challenging circuit. Compare this to some of todays tracks except for Monaco.
I did walk from the top of the hill by the Olympic Stadium down to the first turn hairpin and thought of the 1969 scenes where the Lotus 49 rear wings collapsed, miraculously without killing Jochen Rindt or Graham Hill.

Hyndman wandering aimlessly around the streets of Montjuic Park. April 2011.

[video=youtube;Wont7Ns0FdY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wont7Ns0FdY&t=38s[/video]
Peter Windsor's informative tour of the Montjuic Circuit.




(Ken H )