Just A Mix Of Pics - Ray Green Collection

ERC · Post by **ERC** » Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:19 pm

ERC · Post by **ERC** » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:13 pm

Not sure about this car. Is this the Mallock 31 replica?

I do know this is a Radical...

ERC · Post by **ERC** » Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:31 pm

Not one of the BRMs I know and love, but Mr Fitch is certainly impressive with this BRM

Not many single seater's this year.

ERC · Post by **ERC** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:03 am

Escort - powered by MAZDA

Trevor Sheffield · Post by **Trevor Sheffield** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:36 pm

[quote="ERC"]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]65464[/ATTACH]

The hockey stick as shown in the photo, does not guarantee an accurate recorded time and deciding a winner and depends on the starter placing it uniformly in front of the wheel for each competitor. The first inch or two travel takes longer than one would expect. Some 65 years ago, I built communication and timing equipment for the Northern Sports Car club and took this factor into account.

Brings back memories of the task task of setting things up at every speed event and in particular a specific hillclimb at Ostrich Farm Road.

At a pre-event committee meeting, we decided that this time there would be no delay in getting things started. We set up everything the night before, and for good measure I slept overnight in the club caravan. On waking early in the morning, from within the caravan, I checked the cable which we had run down the hill, and was horrified to find an open, as well as a short circuit. I learned that sheep love plastic and a short length run inside a fence had provided breakfast. LOL, but not at the time!

ERC · Post by **ERC** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:47 am

LOL. Re hockey sticks. That is why the UK system using a beam, was that they would only time to 0.1 unless you had a 'beam breaker' fitted and timing was then to .001. The hockey stick was usually replaced by a chock to stop the car rolling forwards or backwards.

Incidentally, I used to get so frustrated in NZ, waiting around whilst cables were laid, and the limitations of one car on a long hill at a time, that I scrapped the cable system altogether for a series of sprints at Pukekohe and also at the Otaua Hill Climb back in about 1990/91.

Pukekohe - Sprint 1. Open radio at the start. "Car 22, Mini - 3 - 2- 1 go". At the finish line, two or three watches. Car number 23 despatched as soon as 22 was 15 seconds up the road - or past a marshal point.

Three cars on the course at a time, then once past the finish line, joined the queue for the next section, Sprint 2, in other words, two sprints running at the same time. Then the same two tracks run in reverse in the afternoon, giving 4 tracks in a day.

Sure, not as accurate as electronic timing but good enough to get through over 600 runs by 3pm at Pukekohe or six runs per competitor by 3pm at Otaua. For a 'fun' event, more than good enough.

Roger Dowding · Post by **Roger Dowding** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:44 am

Trevor Sheffield wrote:
ERC wrote:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]65464[/ATTACH]

The hockey stick as shown in the photo, does not guarantee an accurate recorded time and deciding a winner and depends on the starter placing it uniformly in front of the wheel for each competitor. The first inch or two travel takes longer than one would expect. Some 65 years ago, I built communication and timing equipment for the Northern Sports Car club and took this factor into account.

Brings back memories of the task task of setting things up at every speed event and in particular a specific hillclimb at Ostrich Farm Road.

At a pre-event committee meeting, we decided that this time there would be no delay in getting things started. We set up everything the night before, and for good measure I slept overnight in the club caravan. On waking early in the morning, from within the caravan, I checked the cable which we had run down the hill, and was horrified to find an open, as well as a short circuit. I learned that sheep love plastic and a short length run inside a fence had provided breakfast. LOL, but not at the time!

Trevor, " The Hockey Stick "- story - would like to put that on the Northern Sports Car Club thread - would also like to know a bit more about the NSCC Hill Climbs.

I knew or have learnt a bit about the Clubs Roads - and to put them in order
Ostrich Farm Road
Birdwood Road
Wharepapa Road

later Cosseys Farm - 1967 on - when I had just joined the Club

Birdwood and Wharepapa have got information from Bob Homewood, supported by others.

Would enjoy you relaying any more stories and details.

Cheers

Roger

Trevor Sheffield · Post by **Trevor Sheffield** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:45 pm

ERC wrote:LOL. Re hockey sticks. That is why the UK system using a beam, was that they would only time to 0.1 unless you had a 'beam breaker' fitted and timing was then to .001. The hockey stick was usually replaced by a chock to stop the car rolling forwards or backwards.

Incidentally, I used to get so frustrated in NZ, waiting around whilst cables were laid, and the limitations of one car on a long hill at a time, that I scrapped the cable system altogether for a series of sprints at Pukekohe and also at the Otaua Hill Climb back in about 1990/91.

Pukekohe - Sprint 1. Open radio at the start. "Car 22, Mini - 3 - 2- 1 go". At the finish line, two or three watches. Car number 23 despatched as soon as 22 was 15 seconds up the road - or past a marshal point.

Three cars on the course at a time, then once past the finish line, joined the queue for the next section, Sprint 2, in other words, two sprints running at the same time. Then the same two tracks run in reverse in the afternoon, giving 4 tracks in a day.

Sure, not as accurate as electronic timing but good enough to get through over 600 runs by 3pm at Pukekohe or six runs per competitor by 3pm at Otaua. For a 'fun' event, more than good enough.

I can not agree that a beam at the start results in accuracy. The recording device can be accurate to many decimal points but this has no bearing on the issue. A beam set up is likely to result in an even longer run up and is also affected by the frontal aspect of each car of very real consideration at the start, but not at the fish due to the road-speed factor. The hockey stick involving the operation of a simple contact is superior in every respect and can be arranged to operate almost instantly the car moves.

My system was quite sophisticated in that the two stopwatch operating solenoids were operated by capacitor discharge, as a means of guarding against even the very slight possibility of contact bounce ,given that a micro switch was employed.

Subsequent to building the NSSC gear I established my own Company building electric/electronic industrial control systems and had secured the NZ agency for Hird Brown Ltd, UK manufactures of motor sports timing gear, I was not impressed and am well aware of what is used overseas.

Simplicity is the key, particularly in respect of club events. I can not see how that used any the Vintage Car Club at their Chelsea hill climb can be bettered from every practical point of view. A CB handy-talkies at the start and finish, enabling a flag drop and a loud shout "go", to be monitored by a reliable time keeper starting a stopwatch to be stopped as the car crosses the finish line. This simple arrangement surely provides truly competitive sport. I gather that you describe a similar system.

Unfortunately in my day, CB radio or model control frequencies were not available and we we were stuck with the substantial nuisance of running out coppers wire. Ham bands were considered but ruled out as not being practical due to overriding interference. Digetally coded signals would have been a pipe dream LOL.

Trevor Sheffield · Post by **Trevor Sheffield** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:55 pm

Roger Dowding wrote:
Trevor Sheffield wrote:
Trevor, " The Hockey Stick "- story - would like to put that on the Northern Sports Car Club thread - would also like to know a bit more about the NSCC Hill Climbs.

I knew or have learnt a bit about the Clubs Roads - and to put them in order
Ostrich Farm Road
Birdwood Road
Wharepapa Road

later Cosseys Farm - 1967 on - when I had just joined the Club

Birdwood and Wharepapa have got information from Bob Homewood, supported by others.

Would enjoy you relaying any more stories and details.

Cheers

Roger

Roger, as a result of your comments, you have encouraged me to think about a thread to be titled, "Bits and pieces from days gone by", so watch this space. LOL

ERC · Post by **ERC** » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:09 am

The British Hillclimb and Sprint championships have use the beam breaker for years. The cars have to have a 'beam breaker' plate at the front and this is lined up at the start line by lights. Good enough I would have thought. As I posted earlier, if you competed without the front plate, timing was only to 0.1 seconds.

I'm guessing it came in at the beginning of the 1971 season based on these two pics, both taken at Prescott.

1970

1971

Trevor Sheffield · Post by **Trevor Sheffield** » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:02 am

ERC wrote:The British Hillclimb and Sprint championships have use the beam breaker for years. The cars have to have a 'beam breaker' plate at the front and this is lined up at the start line by lights. Good enough I would have thought. As I posted earlier, if you competed without the front plate, timing was only to 0.1 seconds.

I'm guessing it came in at the beginning of the 1971 season based on these two pics, both taken at Prescott.

1970
[ATTACH=CONFIG]65472[/ATTACH]

1971
[ATTACH=CONFIG]65473[/ATTACH]

It would appear that the system's obvious limitations were overcome by including complications which can not be popular with competitors. The restricted width of what amounts to a starting gated is noted and I would judge a necessity.

A very significant disadvantage is that it requires accurate positioning of the vehicle rather than the starting device, which can cause frustration and delay.

I would be interested to learn as to how this costly and complicated set up is superior to the simple, coast effective and accurate hockey stick system, which is portable and can be used at any venue regardless. Just how is this beam system, which requires an addition to competing cars, more accurate in respect of electrically recording the start from standstill ?

Oldfart · Post by **Oldfart** » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:55 pm

Trevor, I put a beam breaker on the Buckler for under £2, yes two quid just a year or so back, and removed if needs be in about 2 minutes. I have yet to see anybody object, and the system is about as big as a suitcase to move around, wireless now too.

ERC · Post by **ERC** » Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:11 am

The point is Trevor is that putting the hockey stick under the wheel means the distance from the front of the car is variable. The cars using a beam breaker are all lined up with the breaker at the very front of the car and the finish line beam is also broken by that same device, so all cars are equal in terms of distance travelled.

The system has, as I said, been in place for 50 years and if there was anything more accurate, don't you think they'd be using it, given these are championship events?

We now have transponders in race cars but their position within the car's structure is never checked, so in the event of a dead heat, a transponder timed dead heat is reliant on the location of the unit - but savvy timekeepers or CoC's can look at a video of the race finish if required.

ERC · Post by **ERC** » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:30 pm

Another dig into the archives... Apologies if any have been shown before.

1972 Curborough

1987 Donington

2004 Donington

2004 - Pukekohe - Reynard

Trevor Sheffield · Post by **Trevor Sheffield** » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:57 am

[quote="ERC"]The point is Trevor is that putting the hockey stick under the wheel means the distance from the front of the car is variable. The cars using a beam breaker are all lined up with the breaker at the very front of the car and the finish line beam is also broken by that same device, so all cars are equal in terms of distance travelled.

The system has, as I said, been in place for 50 years and if there was anything more accurate, don't you think they'd be using it, given these are championship events?

Correctly used the front of the car is lined up with the start line while the contact making device is placed under a wheel, front or rear.

Having gained formal tenders for extensive industrial control systems and industrial alarm panels, on the basis of technical merit as well as cost, against long standing overseas manufacturers, I believe that a Kiwi has the knowledge and experience to correctly consider all off the detail involved.

Both systems can be equally accurate dependent on the human factor, but the direct contact system wins on the basis of operator understandable simplicity of use and set-up; adaptable to any venue without extra facilities; absolute portability; a power source is not required and certainly not on on both sides of the road; simple and understandable maintenance. The advantage in respect of cost is obvious.

All without reliance on the each competitor having to cater fo the shortcomings of the device. In my book this single aspect renders the light-beam design, not fit for purpose.

ERC · Post by **ERC** » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:10 am

Your opinion Trevor, but the system is simple, as you roll up and the light shows that the car is correctly positioned.

It takes no time at all and bear in mind, the car isn't going to set off until the car ahead is clear anyway.

No guesswork as to where the front of the car might be. A hockey stick and guesswork and bearing in mind the nose shape of a car such as an E type Jaguar as opposed to an Austin A40, means that if accelerating out of the last bend as at Loton Park for example, the nose lifts and goodness knows what part of the car would break the beam.

As I said, I'm sure that if there was a better and more accurate system than that used by the UK Championships, they'd use it.

Subject closed. Back to photos...

ERC · Post by **ERC** » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:04 pm

2012 - Surtees (Monaco)

Token

2017 - Trojan

2018 - Williams

ERC · Post by **ERC** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:46 am

2018 - I wonder when we'll see the likes of the Donington exhibits again? I'll possibly do the Silverstone Experience in September if I can squeeze it in. Also a return to the Caistor Castle museum is pencilled in for September 8th, now they allow photographs.