BUILD THREAD For 1964 Falcon Sprint to Monte Carlo Rallye FIA spec'

[Paul B]

Thanks Bruce, This pic ^^ is one of the further developed Group5 Falcons which ran later as Steve mentioned above (very successfully too) .
They had much wider rims, a light flaring to the rear fenders, lowered, very low particularly in the rear. They were allowed to run without bumpers and I think these cars were further lightened to try and get to the impossible 980kg Homologation weight.

I would "estimate" the weight of these cars at around 1080kg - Some of todays Appendix K Falcons have a weight of approximately 1160kg and likely struggled to get to that! As far as I am aware 980kg homologation weight was never realised.
So the above car in Group 5 trim, without a rollcage and minus bumpers, Plus whatever else was either swiss cheesed or removed could very likely be 1080kg weight.
in 1968 the engine were stroked to 302, inductions were upgraded to 4 Webers, Cam shaft and Distributor technology leaped back then so the engines were more than likely putting out 400hp+. Power to weight would have been very good for group5.
The Alan Mann Group 5 Falcon had coil springs in the rear. So much development change was made to these cars.
I cant build my car to this spec.
My car will be Appendix K, Group 2, FIA Homologation #1250

[khyndart in CA]

Paul,
I posted these photos on the other Falcon thread.
They show an Alan Mann 1964 Falcon Monte Carlo Rallye car. License number ZE1051

(I really enjoy your inputs and details of your work. You are a true craftsman indeed )

Ken H

[Steve Holmes]

Thanks Bruce, This pic ^^ is one of the further developed Group5 Falcons which ran later as Steve mentioned above (very successfully too) .
They had much wider rims, a light flaring to the rear fenders, lowered, very low particularly in the rear. They were allowed to run without bumpers and I think these cars were further lightened to try and get to the impossible 980kg Homologation weight.

I would "estimate" the weight of these cars at around 1080kg - Some of todays Appendix K Falcons have a weight of approximately 1160kg and likely struggled to get to that! As far as I am aware 980kg homologation weight was never realised.
So the above car without a rollcage and minus bumpers, Plus whatever else was either swiss cheesed or removed could very likely be 1080kg weight.
The engine inductions were upgraded Cam shaft and Distributor technology leaped back then so the engines were possibly putting out 375-400hp. Power to weight would have been very good for group5.
The Alan Mann Group 5 Falcon had coil springs in the rear. So much development change was made to these cars.
I cant build my car to this spec.

I would love to get hold of a set of Group 5 regulations, just to see what freedoms were allowed. Looking through the FIA Homologations List, there is no mention of Group 5. Only Groups 1, 2, 3, seem to be covered for modern day historic racing, and UK/European event promoters only only seem to cater to Groups 1, 2, 3 cars.

Group 5 was used in the British Saloon Car Championship, the ETCC, and even the NZ Saloon Car Championship during the late 1960s, but there seems to be no recognition of it now. Maybe it was considered just a bit too free for modern historic racing.

[Paul B]

Thanks very much Ken, They are great shots from 1964, The engine bay photo ^^ is exactly how I will be building my car. I have been using this shot a lot to get it all correct.
I have all of the parts that you see in the above photo now, apart from the Grifffin copper radiator with a left side top pipe, I will have to get this made, $$s and I have not been able to track down what type of remote oil filter adapter they have used (on the left side of the car in front of suspension tower). I have an AC one that is close & period correct. but still researching that part. If anyone has a clue, it would be gratefully received! ... Mystery of the month quiz!

Steve, I have been looking for group 5 info too... as a matter of interest.
The original 289 blocks become a bit unreliable around 400+ HP and prone to failure.

[Spgeti]

I have your spot lights Paul, collect next week.

Cheers
Bruce

[Paul B]

Thats Roy Pierpoint in the Bill Shaw Racing Falcon. This team ran a Camaro briefly in 1969 before it got written off, at which point they reverted back to the Falcon.

Great post from Ken on the "Falcon sprint thread" - what a find!
Very interesting. As it turns out this car is the surviving Graham Hill car (that I did not even know existed) and was also the Pierpoint car as shown previous posts. It was in Washington state, now sold.
It has some very interesting group 5 Information
Alan Mann racing rebuilt into a Group 5 BSCC (British Saloon Car Championship) racer and sold to Roy Pierpoint.
Pierpoint drove this car ( race history on file) sold car to Martin Birrane in 1969.
Birrane races car in late 1969. Somewhere in here a 500hp 351ci gets added in that was also raced at BSCC
Birrane sells car to Martin Thomas in 1970s. Thomas then has it comprehensively rebuilt by Cambridge Motorsports in the UK in 1990's
Thomas sold the car to Ken McBride, Seattle WA, who imported the car into the US.
Now sold to a new US owner


A race report is on file that shows the car entered as running a 5.7-liter capacity in the British Saloon Car Championship.
Alan Mann rebuilt the car for Pierpoint (BSCC Group 5, 1966-69), the car said to have had a 289 with dual quads and Weslake heads, But I think the the westlake heads were set up for 4 webers.
Front suspension is control arm and coil over as OEM, the rear suspension is Ford 9-inch with four link and watts link.
Discs brakes fitted all round.

[Paul B]

But wait there's more!
This looks like the car that Graham Hill started the Monte Carlo rallye in. Note the race number and the license plate, but this was actually the media car for the magazine writers to drive and write about it.

And below is the car that Graham Hill finished the race in Note the race number license plate- different

The race number on the side of this car was a different placement to the first pic and the license plates are different.
The last 2 photos are of the same car that was pictured at the end of the MCR and went on to be the Piermont group 5 car and the car that Frank Gardner won the BSCC in 67 - Thanks to Ken for finding a piece of history to share and to Bruce302 for prompting it for his pic of the Piermont Falcon.


There was some talk that 2 falcons crashed at the MCR but all 8 that entered, all finished. I guess there could have been some back up cars?

[Bruce302]

It looks like that car crashed, though not badly. It has 201 race number and on the Monte Carlo plate under the bumper, but the licence plate on the front of the bonnet is ZE 1045.

B

[bmeeke]

Hi Paul, I run a '64 Falcon Rallye Sprint in Pre-65 historic touring cars in Perth, Western Australia. I did a lot of research (as you have done) back in 1989 when my car was first built. I collected a lot of material (papers and photos) on a visit to Ford at Dearborn, MI and from Lee Holman. I also collected a lot of original Monte Carlo material from Alan Mann on a visit to the UK; together with homologation papers from the RAC-MSA. My car is a full-on racer and built in accordance with the FIA homologation (#1250) with a CAMS regulatory overlay. I have all-over fibreglass panels; i.e. all hung panels and bumpers. I also have a full set of moulds if you ever need some assistance -- a bit late with that offer perhaps? Alan Mann gave me a lot of info in respect of the cars that were left after the 1964 Monte Carlo Rallye -- i.e. registration numbers, race numbers, VINs, etc. If I can ever be of assistance in respect of background information, don't hesitate to ask.

[Paul B]

Hi Paul, I run a '64 Falcon Rallye Sprint in Pre-65 historic touring cars in Perth, Western Australia. I did a lot of research (as you have done) back in 1989 when my car was first built. I collected a lot of material (papers and photos) on a visit to Ford at Dearborn, MI and from Lee Holman. I also collected a lot of original Monte Carlo material from Alan Mann on a visit to the UK; together with homologation papers from the RAC-MSA. My car is a full-on racer and built in accordance with the FIA homologation (#1250) with a CAMS regulatory overlay. I have all-over fibreglass panels; i.e. all hung panels and bumpers. I also have a full set of moulds if you ever need some assistance -- a bit late with that offer perhaps? Alan Mann gave me a lot of info in respect of the cars that were left after the 1964 Monte Carlo Rallye -- i.e. registration numbers, race numbers, VINs, etc. If I can ever be of assistance in respect of background information, don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks for your post! I would be keen to see some pics of your car, you could post them on the "Falcon Sprint" thread, It would be great to see and hear about what you are doing in Perth! You can also Private Message me through this site. Do you have any videos of your car racing?
Also very kind offer to share info and that also goes for me. I am more than happy to helps and share, mainly to preserve the history for all to read and to keep it alive.
I am most interested in the 1964 engineering and design build of the cars. I am also particularly interested in Holman & Moody body/Chassis modifications.
Thanks for your offer of the Fiberglass, I am almost finished with that smelly toxic stuff, but very happy with the result.
Cheers
Paul

[Paul B]

It looks like that car crashed, though not badly. It has 201 race number and on the Monte Carlo plate under the bumper, but the licence plate on the front of the bonnet is ZE 1045.

B

Hi Bruce,
The top photo the car license plate is ZE1050 This was the media car, the lower 2 photos with the car License plate ZE1045 was Graham hills car still surviving today in Group 5 form.

The race organisers wanted the Montecarlo Rally plates placed in the center front of the cars, this is why most of the cars had license plates reassigned to the front hoods.
See you on Saturday!
Cheers
P

[bmeeke]

Hi Paul,

i tried sending you some photos, but the site requires a particular size (2000 x 2000) and mine are all different. I'm not much good at this blogging business! There are several of my in-car racing videos on YouTube under the category '1964 Falcon Rallye Sprint' -- let me know if you have trouble finding them?

My understanding is that all the performance mods to the Monte Carlo cars were done by H&M, then the cars were sent to the UK for Alan Mann to mod them for rallying. So, H&M did the W289 switch, T10 gearbox, Lincoln front spindles, KH big 4-spots and discs, Galaxie rear drums, 9" diff, 15" wheels, etc.

I'm happy to send you a copy of Alan Mann's notes of the status of all the cars after the Monte Carlo Rally if you can send me an email link -- mine is mailto:?subject=&body=

Its a large file size (7Mb) and I've got some other interesting stuff from my meetings with Alan Mann. I've also recently sent a lot of stuff to Mike Matune (a noted automotive historian and author) in the US. He is doing some work for Lee Holman at present and contacted me for some of the information I have collected.

[Paul B]

Thanks very much Bill, Very keen! I have sent you and email
Cheers
Paul

[Steve Holmes]

Hi Paul,

i tried sending you some photos, but the site requires a particular size (2000 x 2000) and mine are all different. I'm not much good at this blogging business! There are several of my in-car racing videos on YouTube under the category '1964 Falcon Rallye Sprint' -- let me know if you have trouble finding them?

My understanding is that all the performance mods to the Monte Carlo cars were done by H&M, then the cars were sent to the UK for Alan Mann to mod them for rallying. So, H&M did the W289 switch, T10 gearbox, Lincoln front spindles, KH big 4-spots and discs, Galaxie rear drums, 9" diff, 15" wheels, etc.

I'm happy to send you a copy of Alan Mann's notes of the status of all the cars after the Monte Carlo Rally if you can send me an email link -- mine is [email="[email protected]"][email protected][/email]

Its a large file size (7Mb) and I've got some other interesting stuff from my meetings with Alan Mann. I've also recently sent a lot of stuff to Mike Matune (a noted automotive historian and author) in the US. He is doing some work for Lee Holman at present and contacted me for some of the information I have collected.

Hi Bill, its great to have you on here. Thanks for posting. Please feel free to email me any photos that need resizing and uploading to the site. I can do them: mailto:?subject=&body=

[Paul B]

Milestone.... the left door is now finished fiberglass fabrication, very happy with that! This its the final prefit then I will prep it for paint.
Cleaning the mold release off the fiberglass is super important, I use Meths and dishwash liquid in warm water and some elbow grease.
Then Epoxy etch prime the surfaces, then I can continue with door gapping & paint prep.

Very happy with the door closure, they close just as a steel door.

The interior prefit and windows all fit and Polycarbonate windows fitted

From here its on to the front Fenders which need some work but nothing like the doors,

[Bruce302]

Nice work Paul, and that is an understatement.

B.

[Spgeti]

Great work Paul.
Look forward to catch up at Manfeild.
Lots of us historic guys there so come and join in.

Cheers
Bruce D

[Paul B]

Thanks very much Bruce & Bruce. See you on Saturday

1964 footage of Monte Carlo Rallye

[video=youtube;SWrOQWUQXJU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWrOQWUQXJU[/video]

[Oldfart]

Are you keeping with that ground clearance Paul?

[Paul B]

Hi Rhys,
Well that is a good question, on the Homologation #1250 it states 10 inches ground clearance but that was dated 4 November 1963. The cars were delivered some time later and Alan Mann made further rally modifications to the cars. I have a detailed article from July 1964 by David Phipps from Car and Driver (UK) and he made a comprehensive review of these cars, measured, recorded and published the as raced height at 8 inches. I am assuming this was at the door sill (rocker panel) measurement taken from the center of the car, which would fit with the cars dimensions.
He also reported the cars curb weight was 2850lbs (1293kg) this would have been with all fluids and they had 102ltr fuel tanks plus spare wheel/s etc.
The car tested a best 5.7sec 0 - 60MPH and did the 1/4 mile in 14.2seconds at 89 MPH, pretty impressive for the day. He also commented "Power to ground transmission was poor" and that the 4.51 ratio diff contributed to wheel spin in first gear in such proportion that the cars actual performance would probably not be worse with 3.5:1 diff.
The weight distribution was pretty good too - 53% front and 47% rear.
There is a great check result list after the test drive that I will post up at some point.
Cheers