Willis Family Commodore Sports Sedan

[John McKechnie]

Sedan (automobile), a passenger car in a three-box configuration with A, B & C-pillars and principal volumes articulated in separate compartments for engine, passenger and cargo
Sedan meaning 4 doors......Commodore.

[bigbanger]

Sedan (automobile), a passenger car in a three-box configuration with A, B & C-pillars and principal volumes articulated in separate compartments for engine, passenger and cargo
Sedan meaning 4 doors......Commodore.

Yeah right, so you are saying '2 door' cars like Ian Algie's Alfetta, Wayne Huxford's Capri, Graeme Addis' Charger and Barry Algie's Monaro and a host of others were not 'Sports Sedans' and ineligible for NI Sports Sedan Association events? Tui billboard time.

[bigbanger]

Sedan (automobile), a passenger car in a three-box configuration with A, B & C-pillars and principal volumes articulated in separate compartments for engine, passenger and cargo
Sedan meaning 4 doors......Commodore.

Yeah right, so you are saying '2 door' cars like Ian Algie's Alfetta, Wayne Huxford's Capri, Graeme Addis' Charger and Barry Algie's Monaro and a host of others were not 'Sports Sedans' and ineligible for NI Sports Sedan Association events? Tui billboard time.

[rogered]

How about having that debate another day, The story is whats important here

[khyndart in CA]

Rod,
There must be something about the sulphur or the water in Rotorua as it seems to have turned some very good race mechanics over the years. These are the guys that work all hours and get very little acknowledgement and deserve a thread of their own.
The Willis team guys are one example. Graham Donaldson who worked for years at VDS and other teams won the respect of many drivers such as ; Graham Hill, Tony Brise, Alan Jones etc and they all trusted Graham's preparation. Joe Wright was also another very well known race mechanic from Rotorua and I know there are many others that I have not mentioned.
Thanks guys, we will get a thread going for all race mechanics. You are the ones that make it happen.



(Ken Hyndman )

[Oldfart]

Baker brothers?

[ERC]

Yeah right, so you are saying '2 door' cars like Ian Algie's Alfetta, Wayne Huxford's Capri, Graeme Addis' Charger and Barry Algie's Monaro and a host of others were not 'Sports Sedans' and ineligible for NI Sports Sedan Association events? Tui billboard time.

Isn't the wording SPORTS sedans?

[THEDROPSHOP]

[color="#FF0000"]Quote Originally Posted by Bailey

Wouldn't the Graeme Addis charger be the first space frame sports sedan built ?
That was around 1977 or '78 from memory

Quote Originally Posted by Rod Grimwood

No it still maintained the floor ect.[/color]

Incorrect Mr Grimwood. Graeme's original 'Wild Wheels' space frame Charger Sports Sedan had its floor removed in 1975
It was built as a full space frame without a floor.
The only original Charger sheet metal retained – roof, A B and C pillars, front windscreen cowl, partial firewall, partial sills, partial rear guards, partial rear panel.
Definitely no floor, no front rails, no rear rails.
Full space frame, centre section of seamless hydraulic tube, front clip of ERW tube, rear clip seamless hydraulic tube, removable body panel support gantries ERW tube.
Used 3 alloy plates to reduce front to rear racking of space frame - 2 of these plates were motor plates, the 3rd was a diaphragm brace in the lower section of the main B pillar hoop.
This work pre-dates the Willis Commodore by more than 8 years. I have pics if needed.

[Rod Grimwood]

Rod,
I wish I had known you when you here in the Santa Barbara area. I think you were at the Corvette place by the freeway near Carpinteria, would that be correct ? Anyway great stories of your adventures in the US. Thanks for sharing. You also came across Spinner sorting through "stuff" here also !
"Paton & Black" engines;
I may have mentioned this before but when Spinner was a lad at Kiwitahi he sold my sister a horse (It probably wasn't his to sell !)
When Annette got it home it was so frisky she couldn't get a saddle on so she gave it back to (Spencer) and got her money back. The next day,(Wilbur) the horse broke out from the Black's paddock and walked / trotted the 3 miles down the road to our house. I think we kept the Wilbur and never gave "Spin" any money for the horse ! So our families go back a long way..I think they were about 12 at the time, so that is over 60 years ago.
I used to play bare foot footy with John Paton when we were lads and his sister married my best friend.
So when I saw this on the Willis car, it brought back many memories even though we are many miles apart.
See Rod you did not know your writings and photos would have such an effect on someone.. well done.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]34338[/ATTACH]


(Ken Hyndman )

Ken I was not on this trip, but just thought it was good idea to 'Fleece a bit of history from the boys'

[Rod Grimwood]

Yeah right, so you are saying '2 door' cars like Ian Algie's Alfetta, Wayne Huxford's Capri, Graeme Addis' Charger and Barry Algie's Monaro and a host of others were not 'Sports Sedans' and ineligible for NI Sports Sedan Association events? Tui billboard time.

Big Banger sorry but you got it wrong, and missing the whole thing.

Big Banger, thanks for your input, and I think we all actually do know about the PDL11, Hey no one said any thing about those cars you have mentioned not being Sports Sedans, because they were. As you mentioned the PDL11 was a few years before in NZ motorsport and never was a Sports Sedan , and sorry Jims Falcon was a Aussie version and never ran in NZ Sports Sedans. Sorry buddy but it was before Sports Sedans became a class, the class became may be because MANZ squashed the 'other class'
Also PDL11 did not run as 'Sports Sedan' in Aussie either, as it was not accepted and ran as invitation.

And sorry but I do not want be getting into a shit fight but just trying to bring a bit of 'History out' in regard to part of Sport Sedan Association history, North Island, You had OSCA, South Island, which to credit still runs and is awesome.

And talking of history 7 Litres ring a bell.

Any way sorry I got bit pissed off, but did feel there would be some one too F*%k a good ole story, so that be it.

yea we need to get it right, but for F*^k sake there is life north of cook strait.

Sports Sedans Association was formed after the others and MANZ F&%ked it and needed somewhere to race their 'different' cars, and Bay Park took it on (with severe hassle from MANZ) but they stuck with it and along with Taupo (new then) Car Club and Sports Sedan members becoming members of Taupo Club and Auckland and running at club meetings which quickly became big meetings.

Sorry no shit fight intended, but horse's for coarse's. I love the PDL11 and more so the original car as it progressed through life.

[Rod Grimwood]

[color="#FF0000"]Quote Originally Posted by Bailey

Wouldn't the Graeme Addis charger be the first space frame sports sedan built ?
That was around 1977 or '78 from memory

Quote Originally Posted by Rod Grimwood

No it still maintained the floor ect.[/color]

Incorrect Mr Grimwood. Graeme's original 'Wild Wheels' space frame Charger Sports Sedan had its floor removed in 1975
It was built as a full space frame without a floor.
The only original Charger sheet metal retained – roof, A B and C pillars, front windscreen cowl, partial firewall, partial sills, partial rear guards, partial rear panel.
Definitely no floor, no front rails, no rear rails.
Full space frame, centre section of seamless hydraulic tube, front clip of ERW tube, rear clip seamless hydraulic tube, removable body panel support gantries ERW tube.
Used 3 alloy plates to reduce front to rear racking of space frame - 2 of these plates were motor plates, the 3rd was a diaphragm brace in the lower section of the main B pillar hoop.
This work pre-dates the Willis Commodore by more than 8 years. I have pics if needed.

Sorry guys. but it started as a ?
Then modified as you quote, and had.
"The only original Charger sheet metal retained – roof, A B and C pillars, front windscreen cowl, partial firewall, partial sills, partial rear guards, partial rear panel."

I am trying to just do a bit of history on a car, and it never had any of the original, so were are we.
Graeme's was a time changer in our sport but started life as a car.
Do we understand.
PS I love the car, and it's owner/driver is a good bugger as well.

Sorry Thedropshop,

[Rod Grimwood]

Now you can all get into it as I am off fishing tomorrow until Sunday, please do not put too many tricky bits on, as I may be tired on Monday and grumpy.

PS good to have at least got the memories working, 100dreds of cars and 1000s of people involved over the years and maybe you can all do a thread on your experiences and cars etc. Long time dead guy's, don't take them with you (some parts you can take with you OK) share those stories and bits and pieces, (even if bullshit/not quite right) it is ' OUR HISTORY OUR SPORT, AND PASSION'

See you all next week

[rogered]

Good Grief!! Bigbanger, you guys are picking holes in F#$K All. and in the process wrecked what was a great story.

[bigbanger]

Nothing wrong Rod with telling the story of the Willis contribution to our sport and I for one enjoyed the story to date, but the fact remains the Willis Commodore was not the '1st Full Space Frame Sports Sedan' and entitling your story as that will bring out those who will point out the facts concerning the PDL Mustang II and the Addis Charger pre dating it.

If I can address you other comments;

You wrote ' Hey no one said any thing about those cars you have mentioned not being Sports Sedans, because they were.' I was replying to John McKechnie who wrote to the effect to be a sedan as in sports sedan, the car had to have 4 doors (Commodore) which obviously is not correct. Hence my examples of 2 door sports sedans.

You wrote 'the PDL11 was a few years before in NZ motorsport and never was a Sports Sedan , and sorry Jims Falcon was a Aussie version and never ran in NZ Sports Sedans.' To have been a 'sports sedan' it's not necessary for a car to have competed in a NI Sports Sedan Association race, the term was not nomenclature specific only to the SSA and the term was widely used in the post 6 litre (yes it was 6 litre) Shellsport days in the late 1970's and early 1980s. This includes the period when the PDL 2 ran in several races against both local and visiting Australian cars (including the NZ (Murray Bunn) built Big M Falcon of Jim Richards at Baypark etc.

But please continue with the story, I'm interested in hearing more on the Willis MX6 Chev and later.

BB

[bigbanger]

Nothing wrong Rod with telling the story of the Willis contribution to our sport and I for one enjoyed the story to date, but the fact remains the Willis Commodore was not the '1st Full Space Frame Sports Sedan' and entitling your story as that will bring out those who will point out the facts concerning the PDL Mustang II and the Addis Charger pre dating it.

If I can address you other comments;

You wrote ' Hey no one said any thing about those cars you have mentioned not being Sports Sedans, because they were.' I was replying to John McKechnie who wrote to the effect to be a sedan as in sports sedan, the car had to have 4 doors (Commodore) which obviously is not correct. Hence my examples of 2 door sports sedans.

You wrote 'the PDL11 was a few years before in NZ motorsport and never was a Sports Sedan , and sorry Jims Falcon was a Aussie version and never ran in NZ Sports Sedans.' To have been a 'sports sedan' it's not necessary for a car to have competed in a NI Sports Sedan Association race, the term was not nomenclature specific only to the SSA and the term was widely used in the post 6 litre (yes it was 6 litre) Shellsport days in the late 1970's and early 1980s. This includes the period when the PDL 2 ran in several races against both local and visiting Australian cars (including the NZ (Murray Bunn) built Big M Falcon of Jim Richards at Baypark etc.

But please continue with the story, I'm interested in hearing more on the Willis MX6 Chev and later.

BB

[bigbanger]

Good Grief!! Bigbanger, you guys are picking holes in F#$K All. and in the process wrecked what was a great story.

The facts or a 'good story' - you choose?

[Habu]

Damn. I was really enjoying the story on this car, and the innovate guys who built it. I'm just old enough to remember most of the late 70's / early 80's Sport Sedan cars.

I appreciate that aspects of the stories thread title may not be historically accurate to some, but come on, Mr Grimwood has taken the time to post photos and a write a story about a car and adventures of a bunch of young fellas who were out there doing it.

Trainspotting's great if that's what your into.

Give the man some credit.

[bigbanger]

Damn. I was really enjoying the story on this car, and the innovate guys who built it. I'm just old enough to remember most of the late 70's / early 80's Sport Sedan cars.

I appreciate that aspects of the stories thread title may not be historically accurate to some, but come on, Mr Grimwood has taken the time to post photos and a write a story about a car and adventures of a bunch of young fellas who were out there doing it.

Trainspotting's great if that's what your into.

Give the man some credit.

I can't see where anyone has knocked Rod personally on this thread, and nor can I see any failure to give credit for the story.

However for the sake of historical accuracy, there really should not be an issue where people (as several have) point out factual errors.

Sometimes people like yourself Habu may effectively say 'never let the facts get in the way of a good story', but given that internet postings live into the future and may be treated as fact when they actually are not, there's a good reason for others to raise the issue of the factual error.

My understanding is that Rod will continue with his story on the Willis' exploits and I'm sure we're looking forward to that

[Habu]

I can't see where anyone has knocked Rod personally on this thread, and nor can I see any failure to give credit for the story.

However for the sake of historical accuracy, there really should not be an issue where people (as several have) point out factual errors.

Sometimes people like yourself Habu may effectively say 'never let the facts get in the way of a good story', but given that internet postings live into the future and may be treated as fact when they actually are not, there's a good reason for others to raise the issue of the factual error.

My understanding is that Rod will continue with his story on the Willis' exploits and I'm sure we're looking forward to that

The intention of my post was merely to acknowledge that someone has bothered to take the time to write an article, I enjoy accuracy as much as the next person. Pretty sure Chopper Read would have been impressed with your analogy of my interpretation of the story bigbanger.

Looking forward to future instalments

[Steve Holmes]

Er, OK, well this one has got a little side-tracked hasn't it. Its good to discuss the merits of ground breaking cars such as this, and I guess most of the above replies are correct in their own ways.

To my way of thinking, the first space-frame sedans that raced in New Zealand were the Allan Moffat and Red Dawson DeKon Chevy Monza's. These were built in the US and arrived in NZ in late 1975.

The first NZ built space-frame sedan would have been the PDL Mustang II, which first raced in late 1976. The Addis Charger would be next?

Both the PDL II and Addis Charger utilized an original production body shell in which all the not-required sheet metal was cut away and new fabricated fibreglass panels purpose built as replacements.

From reading Rod's early posts, the Willis Commodore was the first NZ built space-frame car to use a completely fabricated body shell. So all the fore-mentioned cars are really pretty ground breaking in their own way.

Anyway, keep the pics and info coming Rod. This is a great thread.