Maybe, but like all desires such as gambling , the desire to race can be funded more comfortably when interest rates have been at Historically low rates, and are staying there.
Lifes short - race the dream.......
New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
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John McKechnie
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Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
Guess that depends what side of the fence you are on, investment or lending.
Seems when the economy slows luxury and hobbies are first to suffer.
Yes too true
Seems when the economy slows luxury and hobbies are first to suffer.
Yes too true
Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
Dale, I am sorry I didnt get up to Icebreaker on saturday......the Mother-in Law needed some attention, and as I hope to inherit some money from her one day, decided to keep on her good side !!!!!!!!!!! 
Now I was browsing through the MyLaps timing on the computer, and couldnt help but notice that your times were a good bit adrift of what they usually are. I know the track wasnt wet, so I have to assume you were running in your new 900hp engine so you can deal to those pesky Aussies..... go for it........LoL...
Now I was browsing through the MyLaps timing on the computer, and couldnt help but notice that your times were a good bit adrift of what they usually are. I know the track wasnt wet, so I have to assume you were running in your new 900hp engine so you can deal to those pesky Aussies..... go for it........LoL...
Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
[color="#0000CD"]Nah Gerald, being a true leader and a man of principle he has probably sleeved & destroked it back to 302 cu in as an example of the direction he feels they should heading in!! 
, you have to admire his dedication..
[/color]
, you have to admire his dedication..[/color]
AMCO72 wrote:Dale, I am sorry I didnt get up to Icebreaker on saturday......the Mother-in Law needed some attention, and as I hope to inherit some money from her one day, decided to keep on her good side !!!!!!!!!!!
Now I was browsing through the MyLaps timing on the computer, and couldnt help but notice that your times were a good bit adrift of what they usually are. I know the track wasnt wet, so I have to assume you were running in your new 900hp engine so you can deal to those pesky Aussies..... go for it........LoL...
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ERC
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Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
Dale was running the #104 Mustang, not his usual #23. Pics of the complete grid (combined with HSS and U3L saloons) on Sunday afternoon's race, on my Mix of Pics thread.
Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
Love John's quote about taking your toys to heaven!
I don't have a muscle car, but I still had a heap of fun in my 62 Alfa Giulietta on Sat
Keith
I don't have a muscle car, but I still had a heap of fun in my 62 Alfa Giulietta on Sat
Keith
Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
Sailone wrote:Love John's quote about taking your toys to heaven!
I don't have a muscle car, but I still had a heap of fun in my 62 Alfa Giulietta on Sat
Keith
Welcome Keith.
It was good to catch up with you on Saturday and your little Alfa looked a darling out there amongst the Morris Oxford, Standard 10 and Speedwell A30.
Glad you enjoyed yourself.
Cheers
Bruce
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Steve Holmes
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Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
As one of the HMC directors, I was personally a little disappointed with the turnout of cars at the Ice Breaker. As anyone who has ever started or run a racing class knows, it’s a hugely intensive job, in which you give up a lot of your spare time, evenings and weekends, working for free, and essentially trying to do something for other people. You rarely get any thanks, generally you get more criticism from people telling you what you’re doing wrong, how your rules should be changed, your race format etc. That’s all to be expected, and I don’t have a problem with that. It comes with the territory. I do think you probably have to be a little bit crazy to want to do this, but if nobody stepped up to the plate to run all these classes, where would we be?
There have been some interesting suggestions on this thread in recent days as to what the issues might be, including the rules, the race structure etc. I personally don’t think the rules are the problem. If they were, there would be no HMC cars whatsoever. Instead, after just four years, we currently have 25 HMC (over 3,000cc muscle cars) cars that are all 100% legal to the rules, with another 8-10 currently being built. This is just in the North Island. Those are pretty respectable numbers considering every single car on the HMC grid, bar none, has had to have some sort of investment be made in order to comply. For some it was a set of 15” wheels, tyres, and new brakes. For others it was building or buying an entire race car. And that’s just the HMC cars, not the HSC cars.
We’ve always maintained that with these types of muscle cars, being big, powerful, lethargic, slightly clumsy, and needing a lot of track space because of the amount of movement they have on bias-ply tyres, that we ideally only want grid sizes of 26-30 cars. Any more and all you have is a traffic jam, with people tripping over each other. So in that respect, we’re well on track to hit those numbers.
As for the HSC cars, their numbers were right down. But that’s to be expected, HMC has only just officially taken over the running of this class, and the fact is, a lot of people who own T&C and Schedule K cars aren’t even aware yet that there is now a dedicated class for them. Fortunately, Bruce Dyer is on the case, and will be getting very pro-active in letting people know this.
So yes, a frustrating weekend, but still some positives to be had. There is a core group of people in HMC who love to go racing, enjoy each others company, enjoy shooting the bull between races, and having a beer afterwards. And they turn up and race at every HMC event. We just need to grow this group. It might also be time to address the HMC calendar, as its clear people aren’t supporting this event. The reasons are fairly typical of any racing class: “I’ve just got too much on at the moment” etc etc. But we need to get to the crux of why it is people have time to race at the Festival, where no doubt we’ll have a very full grid, but they don’t have time to race at the smaller events.
There have been some interesting suggestions on this thread in recent days as to what the issues might be, including the rules, the race structure etc. I personally don’t think the rules are the problem. If they were, there would be no HMC cars whatsoever. Instead, after just four years, we currently have 25 HMC (over 3,000cc muscle cars) cars that are all 100% legal to the rules, with another 8-10 currently being built. This is just in the North Island. Those are pretty respectable numbers considering every single car on the HMC grid, bar none, has had to have some sort of investment be made in order to comply. For some it was a set of 15” wheels, tyres, and new brakes. For others it was building or buying an entire race car. And that’s just the HMC cars, not the HSC cars.
We’ve always maintained that with these types of muscle cars, being big, powerful, lethargic, slightly clumsy, and needing a lot of track space because of the amount of movement they have on bias-ply tyres, that we ideally only want grid sizes of 26-30 cars. Any more and all you have is a traffic jam, with people tripping over each other. So in that respect, we’re well on track to hit those numbers.
As for the HSC cars, their numbers were right down. But that’s to be expected, HMC has only just officially taken over the running of this class, and the fact is, a lot of people who own T&C and Schedule K cars aren’t even aware yet that there is now a dedicated class for them. Fortunately, Bruce Dyer is on the case, and will be getting very pro-active in letting people know this.
So yes, a frustrating weekend, but still some positives to be had. There is a core group of people in HMC who love to go racing, enjoy each others company, enjoy shooting the bull between races, and having a beer afterwards. And they turn up and race at every HMC event. We just need to grow this group. It might also be time to address the HMC calendar, as its clear people aren’t supporting this event. The reasons are fairly typical of any racing class: “I’ve just got too much on at the moment” etc etc. But we need to get to the crux of why it is people have time to race at the Festival, where no doubt we’ll have a very full grid, but they don’t have time to race at the smaller events.
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ERC
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Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
As you say Steve, a tough call. Even with your existing 25 cars or adding the extra 10 maybes, the chances of getting a viable grid let alone a full grid, with an average of a 50% turn out, is very slim for the foreseeable future. I think you'll find that even with 36 cars, they won't be 'tripping over each other', certainly not in any scratch race. By sticking to a scratch race format, you run the risk of people not supporting a series if they are made to feel inferior by virtue of performance/buck spent.
I don't agree that the calendar date of Ice Breaker is a valid reason, as a few years ago, we had our best ever turn out at this event other than the 2015 Festival. Other classes don't seem to have an issue either. We had a 50% turnout with several overseas at the Goodwood Revival, others overseas working or on holiday, not to mention the 'cars not ready', 'can't afford its'. What was your turnout at the other meetings last season? The season before? Are numbers increasing, decreasing or static?
If I were to invest in a Muscle Car, I think that if I was in my prime as opposed to be in my dotage, I'd want a few more opportunities to race, not fewer.
Poll your drivers and find out the truth. We did and the results were as follows. Some wanted more one day events, some wanted more two day events, some preferred Saturdays, some preferred Sundays, so whatever you do, a sizeable percentage will not or cannot participate. Add breakdowns, parts supply issues, workshop delays and increasingly, financial pressures, family pressures etc., and no wonder numbers are often low. All that means is you need more drivers/cars to start with or you have to accept that running with another class is inevitable, no excuses.
No-one could have done more to publicise the class, what it stands for and why, than the directors and the H & C Commission/MSNZ. That can only mean that the target market is too small, or the concept needs addressing. Only the existing drivers can tell you why they didn't support the meeting - or any meeting, but if you are going to poll them, the least you can do is ask them about the future dates in the calendar - Yes? No? Maybe?
If the numbers are likely to low, then you owe it to the promoters or organisers to say so in advance, as with Tony Quin now owning HD, whoever organises a meeting will be paying full price and each meeting will have to run at a profit, or the pricing will have to be per grid.
If the HMC/U3L/HSS grid or grids are low and they are not buying a grid, then I predict a backlash from the other competitors in larger grids, who will effectively be subsidising the smaller grids. Commercial reality has to be a major priority now as costs rise. Don't expect the owners of cheapish run of the mill BMWs, Peugeots or MGBs to support the drivers with $60,000+ investments.
This may not improve your numbers, but it does mean that you may have to seriously consider the alternatives as to who you are prepared to race with.
I don't expect agreement with any or all of the above as I am just an outsider, but they are debatable observations, in the hope that the class doesn't fall over and all the effort wasted.
I don't agree that the calendar date of Ice Breaker is a valid reason, as a few years ago, we had our best ever turn out at this event other than the 2015 Festival. Other classes don't seem to have an issue either. We had a 50% turnout with several overseas at the Goodwood Revival, others overseas working or on holiday, not to mention the 'cars not ready', 'can't afford its'. What was your turnout at the other meetings last season? The season before? Are numbers increasing, decreasing or static?
If I were to invest in a Muscle Car, I think that if I was in my prime as opposed to be in my dotage, I'd want a few more opportunities to race, not fewer.
Poll your drivers and find out the truth. We did and the results were as follows. Some wanted more one day events, some wanted more two day events, some preferred Saturdays, some preferred Sundays, so whatever you do, a sizeable percentage will not or cannot participate. Add breakdowns, parts supply issues, workshop delays and increasingly, financial pressures, family pressures etc., and no wonder numbers are often low. All that means is you need more drivers/cars to start with or you have to accept that running with another class is inevitable, no excuses.
No-one could have done more to publicise the class, what it stands for and why, than the directors and the H & C Commission/MSNZ. That can only mean that the target market is too small, or the concept needs addressing. Only the existing drivers can tell you why they didn't support the meeting - or any meeting, but if you are going to poll them, the least you can do is ask them about the future dates in the calendar - Yes? No? Maybe?
If the numbers are likely to low, then you owe it to the promoters or organisers to say so in advance, as with Tony Quin now owning HD, whoever organises a meeting will be paying full price and each meeting will have to run at a profit, or the pricing will have to be per grid.
If the HMC/U3L/HSS grid or grids are low and they are not buying a grid, then I predict a backlash from the other competitors in larger grids, who will effectively be subsidising the smaller grids. Commercial reality has to be a major priority now as costs rise. Don't expect the owners of cheapish run of the mill BMWs, Peugeots or MGBs to support the drivers with $60,000+ investments.
This may not improve your numbers, but it does mean that you may have to seriously consider the alternatives as to who you are prepared to race with.
I don't expect agreement with any or all of the above as I am just an outsider, but they are debatable observations, in the hope that the class doesn't fall over and all the effort wasted.
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Rod Grimwood
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Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
$$$$$
is one answer, and not all of us have a heap at this present time, but the good thing is, times do change.
I thought when children grew up and couple up that's it, but apparently not.
AMCO has one answer, which I think is common, and these people need looking after, as they looked after us.
is one answer, and not all of us have a heap at this present time, but the good thing is, times do change.
I thought when children grew up and couple up that's it, but apparently not.
AMCO has one answer, which I think is common, and these people need looking after, as they looked after us.
Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
Without a doubt, money, or lack of it would be the major hurdle for a lot of potential racers. It all costs, and is getting worse. Years ago, like in the 80's I could get a reconditioned short-block for the Mini for about $700 !!!!!! Imagine that. Well those days are gone.....forever. I know what good race engines cost these days.......I have inside information !!!!! When confronted with big bills for repairs now, we get a bit reluctant to fork out, and folk like Rod have moved on. They had some fun in the 'old days' when racing was still expensive but their other commitments didnt weigh so heavily upon them. They could fiddle around in their sheds and come up with a reasonably, competitive car, but you cant do that anymore.The days of the cheap NZ special are over. I have to take my hat off to people like Graham Addis for dragging his machine from the container and letting us all see and remember how it was, but not everyone has the inclination or the commitment to do that, so we have to be thankful that a few do.
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John McKechnie
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Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
Nah Gerald, being a true leader and a man of principle he has probably sleeved & destroked it back to 302 cu in as an example of the direction he feels they should heading in!!, you have to admire his dedication.
Jack- just remember what Paul Fahey said- cubic money will always beat cubic capacity
Jack- just remember what Paul Fahey said- cubic money will always beat cubic capacity
Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
Now that is smart............and probably true. Sort of makes the old saying.....'theres no substitute for cu inches'..obsolete.
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touringcarfan
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Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
I am going to go out on a limb here.
Maybe `Icebreaker` is not prestigious enough, whereas the `Festival` is. Imagine that HMS were invited to race at the Supercar meet each year. I have a fair idea how that entry list might look!
Also there was a very visible difference in car speed at HD on the weekend. Maybe some guys don`t fancy getting beaten by a country mile?
Dale, I appreciate what you out there trying to achieve, however can you definitively state that ALL your registered drivers are out to achieve the same?
Anthony Sampson
Maybe `Icebreaker` is not prestigious enough, whereas the `Festival` is. Imagine that HMS were invited to race at the Supercar meet each year. I have a fair idea how that entry list might look!
Also there was a very visible difference in car speed at HD on the weekend. Maybe some guys don`t fancy getting beaten by a country mile?
Dale, I appreciate what you out there trying to achieve, however can you definitively state that ALL your registered drivers are out to achieve the same?
Anthony Sampson
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Steve Holmes
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Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
Brilliant photo I found while rifling through a couple of collections sent to me years ago by Steve Twist, of Red Dawson cranking on some over-steer in his Shelby Mustang. Of course, this car was sold to David Bowden in Queensland many years ago, but more recently, returned to New Zealand when purchased off David by Nigel MacDonald.
Nigel has since raced the Mustang with Historic Muscle Cars on a couple of occasions, but it was painted in its less familiar plain white, as supplied by Shelby (as it was when it went to Bowden's), and as raced by Frank Bryan during its first season in NZ.
Nigel has since put the Mustang through a complete body restoration, where it'll be returned to its more recognizable, and more popular brilliant metallic blue colour, as it appeared when owned by Red Dawson.
Nigel has since raced the Mustang with Historic Muscle Cars on a couple of occasions, but it was painted in its less familiar plain white, as supplied by Shelby (as it was when it went to Bowden's), and as raced by Frank Bryan during its first season in NZ.
Nigel has since put the Mustang through a complete body restoration, where it'll be returned to its more recognizable, and more popular brilliant metallic blue colour, as it appeared when owned by Red Dawson.
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DewiAusTransAm
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Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
Muscle Car Masters Highlights Video
[video=youtube;aJTUT5PZzlg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJTUT5PZzlg[/video]
[video=youtube;aJTUT5PZzlg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJTUT5PZzlg[/video]
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Kiwiboss
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Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
Considering the wet conditions at the start of the day both HMC and HSC had a fantastic days racing yesterday, TACCOC gave us great support and there one day format seems to suit those with busy lives. It was great to see new comer to HMC Richie Malam in his 66 Mustang Fastback, first time ever to motorsport and was attached by the low key fun that HMC produces, he said making sure everyone has compliant cars was an attraction for him as well. Glen Allingham, after racing in Australia ran his 70 Camaro for the first time on NZ soil qualifying 2nd in the wet, Glen only picked his Camaro up from the shippers Friday evening after special clearance release by MAF, great effort Glen considering the others in HMC whom have going cars in their garage but every excuse in the world? Was also great to have Keith Sinclair back in the mighty Hemi Cuda, amazingly in wet conditions he qualified pole and had a huge spin on the back straight in the first race, no damage just wet undies!! he went on to have a great days racing and set fastest time. Pete Stevenson and Glen Allingham had a great last race battle in dry conditions as the weather cleared, Keith Sinclair was right on their tail waiting for a mistake and unbelievable Hillsy Hills in his very quick Mk2 Escort was just a couple of car lengths back waiting for all 3 to trip up with John Sampson right on him. Overall and fantastic FUN day and one thing I noticed, NO angry people and great comradery.
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Kiwiboss
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Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
A few more pictures, thanks to HMC Photographer Phil Noble, I still don't know what he looks like as he's always got a camera to his face, LOL enjoy,
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Kiwiboss
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Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
A few more pit shots from yesterday, the Allingham gang just about out numbered everyone!! they bring a new level of what is known as the FUN team!! Glen and Pete shake hands after a fantastic last race side by side battle, this is what we are about
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Kiwiboss
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Re: New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC
Third from the left is Sean McCaughan who has just purchased Glens XY Falcon to race in HMC, Sean was down for the day to see what its about and meet the other racers. Sean is another new comer to Motorsport and only having no licence stopping him from racing yesterday, HMC seems to be attracting newbies to our sport. Sean welcome on-board.
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