ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports

[nzeder]

Would I be right in thinking most smaller British classic saloons (Escorts etc) would struggle to fit anything wider than a 205 tyre under the standard guards? Fortunately 205/60x13 seems to be well catered for (or is it?), and keeps the gearing standard (same diameter as 155/80 or 175/70), and would be adequate for a slow-poke like me.

Correct 15" rims on a standard body Escort (aka T&C compliant) is almost impossible hence so many Forest Flares on these types of cars so they car run a 225/50/15 - however as I understand the rules with Forest Flares that means Schedule K which does not have a 50 percent aspect ratio but a 60 percent aspect ratio for DOT tyres - or period correct tyre required. Under FIA Appendix K which MSNZ Schedule K is based Escorts with Forest Flares are limited to 13" rims anyway.

This is one of the points that keeps running through my mind - T&C = 50 series tyres = I can run a 225/50/15 or even a 235/50/15 on my Datsun 260z. Or I go Schedule K, which allows me to run Group 4 type flares and wide rims - 15x12 in the rear in period but only period rubber and that is going to be big $$ for someone with a small budget for this hobby that is not going to happen - so I don't flare run stock body work and DOT tyre that needs to be 60 series for Schedule K so I am down to 205/60/15 (same diameter as the stock tyre for a 260z which is 195/70/14) or slightly larger 215/60/15 or 225/60/15 - which you can't get a track tyre in those sizes, just high performance road rubber.

However I guess that is the point of all this is it not? Road tyres or period spec tyres - no semi slick track only tyres.

There is a silver lining for us lower budget guys is that road tyres are general a lower price than the higher performance semi-slick. You get what you pay for. I will never have the budget to be at the pointy end of the field, so if that means I run a standard road tyre and be mid/rear of the pack that is fine that is where my pay grade has me playing. So long as there are others in the same boat and we can have a good bit of fun along the way + with the odd handicap there might be a chance of getting to the checkered flag first just to make the simile a little wider once in a while.

[ERC]

I will never have the budget to be at the pointy end of the field, so if that means I run a standard road tyre and be mid/rear of the pack that is fine that is where my pay grade has me playing. So long as there are others in the same boat and we can have a good bit of fun along the way + with the odd handicap there might be a chance of getting to the checkered flag first just to make the simile a little wider once in a while.

Er, winning a handicap once in a while? H'mm. Generally once every few seasons maybe. Wide smiles frequently though, oh yes!

Will be sending the dinner bookings email out shortly, now that I have just confirmed the price with the caterers. Numbers starting to roll in for the April 20th (Easter Sunday) practice day too via HD ticketing (not motorsport entry) website. Within the first few, were two Z's... Just a reminder that the practice day is not limited to ERC drivers.

[nzeder]

Lol maybe should clarify my term once and a while. I am in my early 40's so I guess I have 20+ years in the sport (I hope, wish, dream) so once in a while is as you say while = few years. Looking forward to the dinner.

Might have to see if I can share a drive

[ERC]

Make that 30 years. We still have one or two over 70's racing. Plenty of time yet Mike. You can even wear your Z gear at the dinner, as the theme this year is "Marque". Anyone turning up with Subaru, Honda, Mitsubishi, Mazda gear, buys everyone else a drink.

The "Ford Mustang" wearers, may have to provide chocolate fish - but we haven't decided on that one just yet.

[ERC]

Make that 30 years. We still have one or two over 70's racing. Plenty of time yet Mike. You can even wear your Z gear at the dinner, as the theme this year is "Marque". Anyone turning up with Subaru, Honda, Mitsubishi, Mazda gear, buys everyone else a drink.

The "Ford Mustang" wearers, may have to provide chocolate fish - but we haven't decided on that one just yet.

[Limezed]

Your welcome to the keys of mine Mike on the 20th. I believe it's just like riding a bike, you never forget how.

Then it's back to the shed with you as Ice Breaker will be creeping up before we know it.

Cheers, Karl

[Allan]

I have been watching this thread with interest and find that if follows other situations that occur within the sport that we love. It would appear that those with the funds to do as they please are happy to spend the money on the best tyres they can find to suit their needs and those who race on a small budget want to be able to compete on a level playing field with all the field running on similar, but not necessarily the same, rubber. Unfortunately you are never going to please everyone. Those who run expensive machinery naturally want to run on good quality tyres in order to protect their investment, and I can understand that. So where to from here? In my opinion organizers of the series have got to look at doing the most good for the most people. Now this poses a problem which has been previously mentioned in that in certain tyre types the range of sizes is not great. So that leaves us in never never land because there is no realistically logical answer to all this. In series like ERC running a control tyre would be totally impossible.
You do a great job Ray and I certainly don't envy you trying to come up with a solution on this.
Allan

[Allan]

I have been watching this thread with interest and find that if follows other situations that occur within the sport that we love. It would appear that those with the funds to do as they please are happy to spend the money on the best tyres they can find to suit their needs and those who race on a small budget want to be able to compete on a level playing field with all the field running on similar, but not necessarily the same, rubber. Unfortunately you are never going to please everyone. Those who run expensive machinery naturally want to run on good quality tyres in order to protect their investment, and I can understand that. So where to from here? In my opinion organizers of the series have got to look at doing the most good for the most people. Now this poses a problem which has been previously mentioned in that in certain tyre types the range of sizes is not great. So that leaves us in never never land because there is no realistically logical answer to all this. In series like ERC running a control tyre would be totally impossible.
You do a great job Ray and I certainly don't envy you trying to come up with a solution on this.
Allan

[ERC]

Thanks Allan. By running one scratch race at each meeting where the lap times are taken into account, but no points, no speed bar, it gives those who want to push a bit, the opportunity to race fairly hard without being slowed down by the traffic.

They then have to accept that those times set in the scratch race are still going to be used for the handicaps anyway, so if they decide to use a different tyre in the scratch race, they run the risk of being over handicapped. Their choice, their risk. Remember we also use historical lap times too, so that faster time rolls over to future meetings.

I still stand by the credo that it is not only all about participation, but AES is an entry level race series for those graduating from Classic Trials and we owe it to them to not be frightened off by having to spend megabucks to keep up. As long as their lap times are acceptable (ie. not too slow - in which case they should revert to trials) we want them to stay.

[ERC]

Just sorting out the points for the end of season and collating a bit of info.

Having previously announced that we'd probably only run one grid next season, now I am not so sure!

Not only did we get 54 turn up to race for the last round - just over 50% - but the AES group averaged just under 24 across all meetings, including the January Taupo and the Arrows group averaged just over 18. So with an overall average of 42, the quandary now is this:

An average of 41 is still less than a full grid, but with a huge speed differential, but compared to most other groups, pretty healthy as separate grids.

Do we run the risk of chaotic speed differences and a load of pit lane starts, or stick to two grids maybe with the exception of the Taupo round, which is just one week before the Festival.

The figures above represent those who turn up, but as we all know, there is always a fair degree of attrition, which can severely knock the numbers fir the last races of the weekend.

IF we elected to combine the grids for the last race, we still have the speed differential but at least the grid sizes are healthier.

Does anyone have any sort of feeling about this?

[Allan]

My thoughts on this are two grids. It appears that these races are more about participation than spectator appeal (although the vast range of makes and models probably negates this) so I would consider the competitors first.

[Oldfart]

Spectators don't seem to turn up to many events, so in my opinion they are very secondary.

[Andrew Metford]

I agree with Allan and Oldfart. What few spectators are there, are usually because they know / crew / support someone who is racing ( not necessarily ERC ) anyway, so do what is right for the Series, and for it's entrants.

[briteyes]

It is hard to turn up to an event if you do not know it is on.
the recent Legends of speed up north. I didnt know it was on.
Yes I am in wellington but travel when ever I am able to to watch good motorsport.
There are plenty of people that would go if they only knew.
We in NZ do a piss poor job of advertising or motorsport to the general public, whats the point in only the people in the know or involved being the only ones there. We need punters through the gates and bums on seats. Broarder advertising may be a good place to start.

[briteyes]

It is hard to turn up to an event if you do not know it is on.
the recent Legends of speed up north. I didnt know it was on.
Yes I am in wellington but travel when ever I am able to to watch good motorsport.
There are plenty of people that would go if they only knew.
We in NZ do a piss poor job of advertising or motorsport to the general public, whats the point in only the people in the know or involved being the only ones there. We need punters through the gates and bums on seats. Broarder advertising may be a good place to start.

[Oldfart]

Perhaps the low level of advertising has a bit to do with promoters having to fund this and like the chicken and the egg...
If ERC had a huge budget (which comes from ???) he would advertise a whole meeting when the classes he runs are only part of the deal.
Until there is a bottomless pot to pay the exorbitant fees which the media want it's always going to be a problem.
The Legends meeting was pretty well publicised on here. Yes I know this is a bit of a specialised forum so not everyone sees it, but as enthusiasts are we not the ones to spread the word for FREE!
Perhaps this site Steve reading this? could have a "sticky" for upcoming events at the top of the General Discussion page which gets by far the most hits?

[ERC]

Briteyes, I understand where you are coming from, but we have looked at advertising in the past and it was a miserable, expensive failure.

If you aren't on Hampton Downs mailing list (just go to their website and sign up) you'll obviously be relying on the general media who totally ignore motorsport, other than if there is a fatality (after the event has run of course) or it is the megabucks Aussie V8s. HD sends out a monthly newsletter which covers everything on at the track, and the HRC (Historic Racing Club) ditto. They even have our practice day Easter Sunday listed! (We still have vacancies...)

HRC take out more race permits that any other club in the country with events not just at HD, but also Pukekohe and Taupo.

This is the reality. We advertised some years ago for a Pukekohe event that included the F5000s on the late January holiday weekend. The weather was fine, but with an airshow on at Ardmore and various other activities on in the region, it cost more to advertise the meeting than we had income through the gate!

We ran the first classic meeting at the then brand new Hampton Downs track. The number of spectators was laughable and I think that we hardly even covered the cost of a paid gate person.

As stated above, even these National race meetings are totally financed by the competitors so unless you can be sure that advertising will bring in enough punters to cover the costs, it isn't worth it. I take it that you noted the lack of spectators at the last Super Tourer round at Pukekohe? Big budget, big names, but too few cars and minimal paying spectators.

Apart from the Festival and the Aussie V8s, the biggest crowd I have seen at a race meeting was the combined Legends with Targa at Pukekohe a few years back.

One shower of rain and the casual spectators don't go anyway.

Agree with Old Fart. We need an upcoming events corner on here, but we are already preaching to the converted. For the last few years, free to air TV in my opinion, showing tiny grids of one make cars, has put more people off the sport than it has attracted. If that is the best that can be shown, no wonder we don't get people through the gate.

When we paid for Sky TV coverage for a couple of seasons, it was usually shown without notice, at maybe 5pm and repeated at 7am the following morning. The last meeting was never even shown at all, as Sky preferred to show repeats of stuff they had bought in from overseas, rather than show a package that was gifted to them.

We generally run meetings for the competitors and no longer even consider the spectators! Sad, but I think the problem of attracting spectators is way beyond fixing at our level with zero resources.

[Spgeti]

I agree with Ray re advertising events. Even down here for Manfeild the advertising is restricted to Manfeild or Manawatu Car Club Websites. After that it is up to the car clubs or event holder to shell out to advertise. MG to a good job with their two events down here but it is still at a low level most likely due to cost.
Belonging to Alfa Romeo Owners Club gives me access to Trofeo who do a good job notifiying us of the events in Auckland area.
apart from the Festival I usual see a couple of HRC events at Taupo just to support the Trofeo guy's and usually a group of us make the trip to make it worth while.

[Allan]

As in anything you do you must balance the costs against the rewards. Shelling out large sums on advertising and not having enough spectators pass through the gate to even pay for it is not the way to go. And adding a bit to entry fees is not going to make you many friends either.

[ERC]

Well, that is season 28 put to bed after a successful awards dinner. We raised about $1200 for Child Cancer thanks to generous gift donations from AES (Auckland Engineering Supplies), Barbara Manning, Rex & Donna Ferall and Des Regewell plus several others.

With racing still on at Manfeild, several regulars couldn't make it but great to see two of the Historic Commission present, plus Dale Mathers, enjoying the evening.

The highlight, without a doubt was having Tony Sturm attend after his horrific crash at Taupo back in January. Walking with a frame, he is now able to stand briefly, unaided.

As we don't publish points meeting by meeting - or indeed, at all, some of the following may have been surprised with their awards.

Adam Jones put together a brilliant 7 minute film with clips from in car videos throughout the last season or two spliced into clips from the 1966 film - "Grand Prix. (YouTube link to come...)

Great food as always and the evening closed with a short Power Point presentation of upcoming cars and of course, the raffle. Many thanks to so many people for their generosity and to Barbara, Sue and Paula for selling the raffle tickets.

Trophies in order of either importance or points scored.


Most Sporting - Convenors Trophy - First time winner - Rex Ferrall- Triumph TR8;

AES - Grp 2 - First time winner - Colin Craig – Ford Escort;

Arrow Wheels Grp 1 First time winner - Steve Cowie – Alfa Romeo GT;

Top Saloon First time winner - Ken Williams – Mercedes 280;

BMC series for 4 cylinder cars (Original Trophy) - First time winner - Dave Mallin – MGB GT;

TOPS MG - First won 2010 - Grant Kern – MGB Sports V8/K3 Special;

John Tomlin Ford - First time winner - John Sampson - Ford Capri 2600;

Top Italian - Second time - also 2012 - Chris Browne – Alfa Sud;

TOPS Alfa - First time winner - Edward Hunkin – Alfa 33;

Jason Nicholl Porsche - Second time - also 2012 - Brian Yates – Porsche 944;

TOPS Datsun Z - First won 2007 - Ricky Cooper – 240Z;

Sutherland BMW - Also won 2011- John Hudson – BMW 2002;

TOPS Jaguar - Fourth year running - Derek Moore – Jaguar XJS;

TOPS Triumph - First won 2002 - Geoff Sparkes – Triumph Dolomite Sprint;


Token volunteer awards – Shiane Day & Carter Rinkin

Additional Awards – “The ReVolvo Trophy” (revolving jandal trophy) – Des Redgewell - For putting his Volvo on its roof.

Dark glasses, White Stick & Labrador award for missing the flags – Zac Lawrence (BMW635) – with additional ear trumpet for breaking the Pukekohe noise limit.

We now look forward to season 29 - and my 19th as a de facto dictator or Chinese Warlord....

Many thanks to all ERC drivers and the many series supporters who enjoy the participation and camaraderie and most of all, clean driving and a huge variety of cars.

Ray