ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports

[Spgeti]

I agree Ray with some flexiblity in the tyre choice but I also believe that they must meet WOF regulations. I also don't see that you have the time to check every car. Running a control tyre or designated option as Dale does in HMC is a good idea but it doesn't suit the variety of cars that race. Tony you have a hurdle in front of you with this but legality is the issue of what you can use and that will change month by month.
Sorry Ray its hijacking your thread a bit but is a good subject.

[ERC]

Not hi-jack at all. These issues deserve an airing somewhere and maybe they'd get more traction as a stand-alone thread but it is good to get a variety of opinions from both within and outside the series. For people such as myself who tend to work from home, unlike those in workshops with people coming and going, the message boards are an essential means of communication.

I just wish there were even more contributors as if we are not careful, we get swayed by a minority. Polling our drivers is useful but the same people respond each time, which is fine by me. They all have the opportunity to be heard.

[Kiwiboss]

The last thing I want to do is over complicate what we have , which is currently very simple. If I look under a car and see tread, then I assume that all is reasonably OK. If what I see is just two grooves and no tread pattern , then it suggests to me that maybe it is more of a race tyre than a road tyre. That is about as simplistic as it gets without getting bogged down with numbers, lists, acceptable and exceptions.

Achtung fuhrer Ray, great debate going on here, i agree with your statement! The last thing I want to do is over complicate what we have , which is currently very simple. If I look under a car and see tread, then I assume that all is reasonably OK. If what I see is just two grooves and no tread pattern , then it suggests to me that maybe it is more of a race tyre than a road tyre.

So its a easy solution and i figured this out while been on bended knees all day today because i know how you like to stand straight and tall at these events with one arm upwards, LOL! BUT all anyone needs to do is go directly to the T&C rules and the problem is solved? Currently the tyre regs read: Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand may be used. (ie. road tyres having 1.5mm minimum tread depth across 75% of the width of the tyre and around the entire circumference). Aspect ratio is restricted to 50% minimum

Its the "road tyres having 1.5mm minimum tread depth across 75% of the width of the tyre" that solves this problem and all you have to do is get an ERC SS officer to bend down and check the tyre every racer has because a Hankook 2 stripe slick and a Kumho V700 with a light tread pattern "does not" have 1.5mm depth tread across 75% of the tyre and thats pretty obvious to see!!

Dale M

[Carlo]

Currently T&C rules quoting portions of the WOF requirements are quite some number of years out of date. The current version of the NZTA Vehicle Inspection Requirements Manual states the following:

14. A tyre, other than a winter tyre (Note 3), fitted to a vehicle capable of exceeding 30km/h, does not have a tread pattern depth (Technical bulletin 7) of at least 1.5mm (excluding any tie-bar or tread-depth indicator strip) around the whole circumference of the tyre:

a) within all the principal grooves that normally contain moulded tread depth indicators, or

b) if the tyre does not normally have moulded tread-depth indicators (such as some retreaded or vintage tyres), across at least three-quarters of the tread width.

Just thought that I would throw that into your discussion

[Kiwiboss]

Currently T&C rules quoting portions of the WOF requirements are quite some number of years out of date. The current version of the NZTA Vehicle Inspection Requirements Manual states the following:

14. A tyre, other than a winter tyre (Note 3), fitted to a vehicle capable of exceeding 30km/h, does not have a tread pattern depth (Technical bulletin 7) of at least 1.5mm (excluding any tie-bar or tread-depth indicator strip) around the whole circumference of the tyre:

a) within all the principal grooves that normally contain moulded tread depth indicators, or

b) if the tyre does not normally have moulded tread-depth indicators (such as some retreaded or vintage tyres), across at least three-quarters of the tread width.

Just thought that I would throw that into your discussion

True Carlo but been outta date with what LTSA say's doesn't matter as this is a ruling for "Motorsport car racing" and is currently in the MSNZ manual so nothing needs changing just enforcement so Ray may as well use this!! also this helps alight ERC and Arrows to MSNZ and the H&C commission which Ray is eager to do so is gotta be good for old car racing! true?

Dale M

[CobraV8]

I am still wondering why this is an issue? Let people run anything, no need to complicate things. They shouldn't be changing tyres and breaking out from the official times for handicaps.

[Carlo]

True Carlo but been outta date with what LTSA say's doesn't matter as this is a ruling for "Motorsport car racing" and is currently in the MSNZ manual so nothing needs changing just enforcement so Ray may as well use this!! also this helps alight ERC and Arrows to MSNZ and the H&C commission which Ray is eager to do so is gotta be good for old car racing! true?

Dale M

"Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand may be used."

So either you need to remove these words or update the definition within the motorsport regulations

[Kiwiboss]

"Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand may be used."

So either you need to remove these words or update the definition within the motorsport regulations

Not me Carlo, im just quoting whats currently written as a rule about tyres under the T&C section of the MSNZ manual!! wording seems pretty clear to me?

CobraV8, look some will do anything and its worst if they can afford it!! you could have a 1:10.00 vehicle around Hampton that has onboard lap timing system so he can just stay ahead of those behind him but not fast enough to break out!! CRAZY sure!! but someone will do it? still Rays handicapping will sort him out anyway(correct Ray) just put them back even further!!

Interesting

Dale M

Dale M

[CobraV8]

I guess the guys that have loads of money will just buy the best legal tyres and run them with as little tread as they can. The only people I see this affecting are those that have racy road tyres and don't want to have to change them because of new rules when they can't afford unnecessary expense.

[crunch]

if you are running a 14 inch rim like and Alfa 105, the correct size rim for the car, you are really scatching to find tyres.

Under T&C regs you are allowed to go 1 inch bigger...plenty of 15" choice of rubber round things around

[Spgeti]

I was aware of that Crunch. I last ran the car 6-7 years ago and bringing it out this year after a long layoff I find that for my 14x6.5 inch GTA replicas, tyres are there but are difficult to source. Most the guys down here running 105s, 116s etc apart from 2 others have upgraded to 15 inch rims.
I am faced with that as well and have made the decision to go to 15 inch Revolutions to keep the period look correct.
My point was that the smaller size wheels the tyre choice is limited.

[ERC]

Correct Crunch, but many 1960's/70's cars, including mine, were on 13" rims and at 14", have already gone up to maximum allowed.

Correct Dale. Drivers who have transgressed get their handicap 'adjusted'! Not very often maybe, but although some believe that the fastest car should always win, I don't, and spreading the chocolate fish around creates a far better attitude than knowing who will win.

If someone askes 'How' they can win the series, there are two responses.

1) Why do you want to know? or,

2) Turn up at every meeting, drive sensibly and finish every race - but you may never actually win a race.

It really is as simply as that.

Dale is also correct in that some drivers are using various modern devices to moderate their speed, but the vagaries of handicap racing are that if for whatever reason you lose a couple of seconds on one lap, as in life generally, you can't get it back.

Some drivers amaze me by their ability to get through traffic so easily and safely and they manage to finish quite high in the results. They are usually the ones who have a certain amount of 'excess power' and can shoot past, but those with a lot less power have to bide their time. Part of the fine tuning of the handicap system takes that into account. Some races turn out to favour the slower cars and some favour the faster cars. Who cares?

[nzeder]

So long as everyone is

Love supporting/watching and come Ice Breaker racing in the ERC group keep up the great work.

[Parnelli]

Tire Lesson 102 - Manufacturers can only afford to produce tires in a range of diameters that they hope will sell in volume. As the performance level of road cars has improved then the diameter of wheels has increased ( larger brakes ) and the profile of tires has reduced ( 70,65,60,55,50,45,40,35 etc ) One can only assume that when the T & C rules were set up ( 1970’s ? ) they made allowance for the then gradual increase in Tire diameters 13” to 14” and 15” to 16” that the availability of suitable tires dictated. For us greybeards in 2014, to still be expecting to purchase performance street tires in 13 to 16 diameters when the manufacturers have moved on to 17” to 20 “ production is getting to be fairly futile. This situation is very bad now and only going to get a whole lot worse.
Yes, there are a few manufacturers still producing reasonable performance tires in small widths for 13 to 16 “ rims and some still making ‘cheater type’ tires but to find larger width, performance street tires in these sizes, is like finding the rocking horse doo doo.

Maybe it’s time for a re - look at tire diameters under the T & C rules . Auckland based Production Muscle Cars class don’t allow Willwood brakes, Dry sump engines, Yeriko Gearboxs etc but have made allowance for larger diameter wheels to cater for readily available street legal tires !

p.s.. Hey Ray, what’s this “tyres “ language ? Here was me thinking you spoke the Queens English !

[ERC]

Tyres IS the English spelling!!! Tires is the US spelling.

[Parnelli]

Geez, that was quick !

[928]

One soon tires of this tyre discussion. Does that make it easier to understand the four letter words parnelli

[ERC]

Geez, that was quick !

Yup. And before my first large, strong, sweet coffee of the day too! No, not a tea drinker either - but you knew that...

[nzeder]

Racing a production based car is compromise be it a new or a classic. Given we are talking Classic cars then rim size is a compromise and as pointed out so is tyre choice due to availability in today's world.

[Bryan]

Would I be right in thinking most smaller British classic saloons (Escorts etc) would struggle to fit anything wider than a 205 tyre under the standard guards? Fortunately 205/60x13 seems to be well catered for (or is it?), and keeps the gearing standard (same diameter as 155/80 or 175/70), and would be adequate for a slow-poke like me.