ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
Yes, but its not as if Ray had offered them $100,000 to be included. They obviously think the cars are worthy competitors, and are not going to dilute the special nature of the event, which is one of the core arguments of HMC.
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Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
Crunch, I think that you'll find that many CoD's were in fact refused for spurious reasons in the early days of the system and as it came out not long before there was a move to make them compulsory, the system started off on the wrong foot and in some respects, has never really recovered. Fear of not being allowed to compete was the only reason I got mine (and others who like me are still on the earliest version) and it has never been out of the envelope since the day it arrived.
Am I the only one on here that wants a clear distinction between Historic and Classic? All Historic cars are also classic, but not all Classic cars could be deemed historic.
A CoD is somehow seen as a magic document but as JAFA pointed out elsewhere, they can be out of date quite quickly even though the car may still confirm to the current T & C rules.
Why are the "rules" T & C yet everyone is arguing about Historic? Why does the HMC Series need to tighten up if the "rules" are bullet proof? In other words, you can have a car built to T & C and have a CoD, but will still be refused entry to the HMC Series as your car may not conform or be accepted as we all know that a CoD is no guarantee of acceptance in any grid or any meeting.
That power is still held by Series organisers and meeting promoters which is exactly the course we have always adopted. The inconsistency of saying that OUR cars do not conform to T & C nor have to have a CoD is compared to a series where even with them, you still may not be allowed to race, is one of those ironies that most seem to have missed. I love it!
Am I the only one on here that wants a clear distinction between Historic and Classic? All Historic cars are also classic, but not all Classic cars could be deemed historic.
A CoD is somehow seen as a magic document but as JAFA pointed out elsewhere, they can be out of date quite quickly even though the car may still confirm to the current T & C rules.
Why are the "rules" T & C yet everyone is arguing about Historic? Why does the HMC Series need to tighten up if the "rules" are bullet proof? In other words, you can have a car built to T & C and have a CoD, but will still be refused entry to the HMC Series as your car may not conform or be accepted as we all know that a CoD is no guarantee of acceptance in any grid or any meeting.
That power is still held by Series organisers and meeting promoters which is exactly the course we have always adopted. The inconsistency of saying that OUR cars do not conform to T & C nor have to have a CoD is compared to a series where even with them, you still may not be allowed to race, is one of those ironies that most seem to have missed. I love it!
Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
John McKechnie wrote:With the older and more delicate cars, a rolling start is more easier on the machinery, and also relieve congestion in first corners with less chance of damage.
Does anyone have a suggestion on how to do rolling starts using the handicap system?
What with 3 piece alloy rims, forged axles, truetrack centres, Jerico boxes, 3 plate race clutches, dry sump engine, willwood race brakes etc there is not too much old and delicate parts left to break on HMC cars ! And I guess there is also no first corner congestion with handicap starts .
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Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
John McKechnie wrote:With the older and more delicate cars, a rolling start is more easier on the machinery, and also relieve congestion in first corners with less chance of damage.
Does anyone have a suggestion on how to do rolling starts using the handicap system?
Not too difficult John just as long as each driver knows their row/place and how long after the flag they are supposed to go. A bit like yachting really as all they have to do is trundle along until each row gets the flag, but it may require co-operation between race control and starter - but don't expect every driver to understand and conform!
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Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
Parnelli- I am the Historic Sports Sedan coordinator and as such I am asking a sensible question here on adding some variation to this new class, and I dont understand why you brought HMC into this.
Ray- thank you for this imput, I knew you wouldnt let me down.
We will talk before 29th.
Ray- thank you for this imput, I knew you wouldnt let me down.
We will talk before 29th.
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Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
John, our handicap system is quite comprehensive (so it should be after 18 years!) and relies on a mix of historical and current lap times with each car. It all runs from a spreadsheet for each track and as long as you have someone who is half way competent with an Excel spreadsheet, pretty straightforward to run.
I can start setting one up for you very easily at the Legends meeting to give you some idea if you want. What is important to remember is that regardless of how good the handicapping in theory, on track, just one incident or one driver not moving over to let a faster car through, can turn it all to custard. But, as long as the drivers accept the vagaries of handicap racing and also see the advantages of everyone finishing on the same lap - or quarter lap and everyone getting a race, then all is sweet.
I can start setting one up for you very easily at the Legends meeting to give you some idea if you want. What is important to remember is that regardless of how good the handicapping in theory, on track, just one incident or one driver not moving over to let a faster car through, can turn it all to custard. But, as long as the drivers accept the vagaries of handicap racing and also see the advantages of everyone finishing on the same lap - or quarter lap and everyone getting a race, then all is sweet.
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Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
Its simply a matter of the spacings between the cars as they are rolling towards the starter.
We can talk on the day.Thanks Ray.
We can talk on the day.Thanks Ray.
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Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
Dale, you have started up the HMC because you saw a lot of big bore saloons sitting around with nowhere to race. Good job. You also admit that there are some cars in the ERC series that are period correct. So, where are the period correct SMALL BORE cars supposed to race? There is no class for such a car, and they are all comfortable racing in the ERC series. They accept that there are other cars there less period correct than theirs, but with the handicapping system, every single car on the grid whether period correct or a "hot rod club car" as you like to call them, has the same chance of winning a race and winning the series. There's also no Dukes of Hazard-style driving, so the risk of an accident is the same as if it was a grid of only period correct cars. At the end of the day no one wants to bend their car, much less someone else's, and everyone knows you get a chocolate fish if you win the series, and the series points are not published after each round, only after the final round, so no one has any idea where they are points-wise anyway!!!
In an ideal world we would have enough period correct small bore cars to have their own full grid, and the ERC series would have its' own full grid as well, but we don't live in an ideal world so you have to make the most of what you have and try to be reasonable in accommodating as many cars as possible without taking the whole thing too far off the rails. Having a 1 man committee to my mind makes this a lot more achievable, and since the 1 man committee has been in place there haven't been ( to my knowledge ) the various drama's that used to occur with the panel committee of old.
Whether you want to admit it of not, any form of motor racing will always revolve around the chequebook, and the grid will reflect that. Someone could build a car that will conform to you HMC rules, but it won't be anywhere near as fast as your car because they mightn't have a spare $125K to throw at it ( price to buy the PDL car, but I don't think the engine in that car is up to yours? ), so the cheque book thing is irrelevant.
In an ideal world we would have enough period correct small bore cars to have their own full grid, and the ERC series would have its' own full grid as well, but we don't live in an ideal world so you have to make the most of what you have and try to be reasonable in accommodating as many cars as possible without taking the whole thing too far off the rails. Having a 1 man committee to my mind makes this a lot more achievable, and since the 1 man committee has been in place there haven't been ( to my knowledge ) the various drama's that used to occur with the panel committee of old.
Whether you want to admit it of not, any form of motor racing will always revolve around the chequebook, and the grid will reflect that. Someone could build a car that will conform to you HMC rules, but it won't be anywhere near as fast as your car because they mightn't have a spare $125K to throw at it ( price to buy the PDL car, but I don't think the engine in that car is up to yours? ), so the cheque book thing is irrelevant.
Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
Quite interesting reading all this discussion on a local area clubmans race formula, the passion is tremendous, long may it continue.
Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
John McKechnie wrote:Parnelli- I am the Historic Sports Sedan coordinator and as such I am asking a sensible question here on adding some variation to this new class, and I dont understand why you brought HMC into this.
Ray- thank you for this imput, I knew you wouldnt let me down.
We will talk before 29th.
Hi John , The majority of discussion on this particular thread of late has been about the perceived eligibility of Ray’s class to run at the festival. Subjects covered a range of topics about and by participants in ERC, HMC, HSS, and other classes. Your statement and question were not specific to HSS, so given that HMC does not run handicap races and are looking to use rolling starts, then my comments are perfectly relevant to the current issues.
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Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
From my perspective it is important that the various class structures and philosophies are discussed openly. We have supported the HMC concept from day one and we have also supported John and the historic saloons class.
Over recent years we seem to have had the pre 65 class for older race saloons, several Muscle car classes, each with its own rules and philosophy and ourselves with cars effectively in road-going guise.
The gap in the system was for race saloons post '65 and to a degree, there is still a bit of a gap for more recently built race saloons but based on classic components, or replicas of race saloons.
The HMC series hasn't filled a gap as such, but reflects that in some of the other muscle car classes, cars were more race saloons than original. That means that a period correct car would be outclassed, but could still run. So the HMC is a sub division of something that already existed.
We have accepted one or two thinly disguised race saloons (John Dennehey's ex-Halliday Escort, Adrian Dobbe's Vauxhall and even the ex- GT Forsyth MG V8 with wider wheels, no lights and huge wing).
We gave them a platform as there was no other suitable class. The same applies to the Datsun Z's. At the time, there was no other class for cars which we believed added colour and value to the classic race scene. At long last, John has grabbed the potential for those race saloons. The MG V8 has been toned down though it is still marginal - but we were backed by the MGCC in our early days and still support MG anyway! (Wait until you see what we have allowed Grant Kern to run at the Legend's Meeting, whilst the MG V8 gearbox is being rebuilt...)
Steve Melhuish was encouraged to set up a grid for Japanese Classics and although we would never exclude JD, Adrian or the Z drivers, (why should we?) it is their choice as much as ours to allow them to continue.
Dale's comment about committees also has a distinct lack of understanding as to how some committees, instead of isolating self-interest, have shown that it rubber stamps it, or, the committee elects to not listen to its drivers anyway. As a result, the Datsun Z guys have elected to stick with us and drivers of several of our larger cars who went off to try one of the muscle car classes a few years ago, (in parallel) soon abandoned that foray and just carried on with us! Note also the number of BMWs that are now racing with us.
I take that as a support for what we are doing or, that our niche is just that. A bit of a catch all class, but so what? JAFA's post above highlights another issue we are aware of which is why we accepted the Torana 6 and would also seriously consider any others plus Falcons or Commodore 6's where they felt that they were being swamped by the larger capacity V8s.
So we strayed from 100% pre 1977 Euro? Big deal! The series started off 28 years ago as 4 cylinder BMC! No different from my favourite jazz band. It started off in 1954 with a six piece line up, then added, shock, horror, an electric blues guitar. So some purists fans walked out. Then they added another reeds player to the front line. Then, years later, three extra players to the front line. That upset a few more, but guess what, 60 years later they are still around and still led by the same musician who started a co-operative band in 1953, but eventually realised that it was better to have a leader who looked after everything.
The difference is that even as a one man band, I regularly poll all drivers so that all are consulted before major decisions are made, which is what happened with the 2015 Festival. Had we not had the support, then we wouldn't have made the approach. Significantly, I didn't get a single response saying we shouldn't go ahead. A positive 30% poll return is better than average, so even if the other 70% are not keen, they haven't indicated any objections either, so I am not blind to the fact that there may well be some who are not keen, but they obviously don't feel too strongly about it.
Over recent years we seem to have had the pre 65 class for older race saloons, several Muscle car classes, each with its own rules and philosophy and ourselves with cars effectively in road-going guise.
The gap in the system was for race saloons post '65 and to a degree, there is still a bit of a gap for more recently built race saloons but based on classic components, or replicas of race saloons.
The HMC series hasn't filled a gap as such, but reflects that in some of the other muscle car classes, cars were more race saloons than original. That means that a period correct car would be outclassed, but could still run. So the HMC is a sub division of something that already existed.
We have accepted one or two thinly disguised race saloons (John Dennehey's ex-Halliday Escort, Adrian Dobbe's Vauxhall and even the ex- GT Forsyth MG V8 with wider wheels, no lights and huge wing).
We gave them a platform as there was no other suitable class. The same applies to the Datsun Z's. At the time, there was no other class for cars which we believed added colour and value to the classic race scene. At long last, John has grabbed the potential for those race saloons. The MG V8 has been toned down though it is still marginal - but we were backed by the MGCC in our early days and still support MG anyway! (Wait until you see what we have allowed Grant Kern to run at the Legend's Meeting, whilst the MG V8 gearbox is being rebuilt...)
Steve Melhuish was encouraged to set up a grid for Japanese Classics and although we would never exclude JD, Adrian or the Z drivers, (why should we?) it is their choice as much as ours to allow them to continue.
Dale's comment about committees also has a distinct lack of understanding as to how some committees, instead of isolating self-interest, have shown that it rubber stamps it, or, the committee elects to not listen to its drivers anyway. As a result, the Datsun Z guys have elected to stick with us and drivers of several of our larger cars who went off to try one of the muscle car classes a few years ago, (in parallel) soon abandoned that foray and just carried on with us! Note also the number of BMWs that are now racing with us.
I take that as a support for what we are doing or, that our niche is just that. A bit of a catch all class, but so what? JAFA's post above highlights another issue we are aware of which is why we accepted the Torana 6 and would also seriously consider any others plus Falcons or Commodore 6's where they felt that they were being swamped by the larger capacity V8s.
So we strayed from 100% pre 1977 Euro? Big deal! The series started off 28 years ago as 4 cylinder BMC! No different from my favourite jazz band. It started off in 1954 with a six piece line up, then added, shock, horror, an electric blues guitar. So some purists fans walked out. Then they added another reeds player to the front line. Then, years later, three extra players to the front line. That upset a few more, but guess what, 60 years later they are still around and still led by the same musician who started a co-operative band in 1953, but eventually realised that it was better to have a leader who looked after everything.
The difference is that even as a one man band, I regularly poll all drivers so that all are consulted before major decisions are made, which is what happened with the 2015 Festival. Had we not had the support, then we wouldn't have made the approach. Significantly, I didn't get a single response saying we shouldn't go ahead. A positive 30% poll return is better than average, so even if the other 70% are not keen, they haven't indicated any objections either, so I am not blind to the fact that there may well be some who are not keen, but they obviously don't feel too strongly about it.
Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
With respect Ray, I don't think your poll result is surprising - of course many of the ERC participants who have cars the were previously ineligible for the Festival would have been as keen as mustard to be allowed in.
An interesting poll would have been the one from the exiting Festival competitors as to how they felt about the standards of the Festival being changed to let previously non-compliant cars compete.
An interesting poll would have been the one from the exiting Festival competitors as to how they felt about the standards of the Festival being changed to let previously non-compliant cars compete.
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Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
Roger, The ones who were the keenest for an ERC grid next year were 16 drivers who had competed at previous festivals with eligible cars who did NOT enter this year. Surely what is important, is WHY those 16 didn't enter in 2014 but are keen to run in 2015 in an ERC grid.
Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
Well put JAFA and Ray - a number of the car would not have a place to play if the ERC grid did not exist. I am thank full that once my car is complete it will have a grid to run in.
I have the wrong car for the festival as the Datsun Z cars are GT/Sport Cars so we have to run with cars that are 100% race cars designed for one thing the track. The Datsun Z car is not a big car but towers over the real sports cars who barely come up to a lowered Zed door. I have not raced at a festival but having watched this grid it is not a place I would want to run in and in period the zed did not complete against these sports cars aka Mallocks but against other production based GT cars. By production I am talking about mass produced road going cars.
Years ago I owned a very tidy Datsun 160Jsss and my plan was to race this as a classic car - but this was pre festival but there was no grid for a car like this in Auckland other than clubmans. So I sold the car (which I do regret as they are so rare these days and it was the tidiest ones I have seen that was not hacked up with modern engine) but as it is a 2 door saloon it would have a place in the festival - The Datsun 160Jsss was Datsun must successful rally car so that was shame. So it was sold and I purchase a motorbike again.
So I now have a zed again which does have grid at non Festival events however at the festival there is no suitable grid in my opinion as all production based grids are for Saloons only - even grids like the U3L which will allow non saloons during the season will only accept saloon at the festival.
I know I have wrong car still - I should be racing another Escort or BMW or something. But I like Datsun - they were the Japanese manufacture that was trying something different, they were racing in the US, EU and in AU/NZ with the 1600 and 1200. their cars were different with things like IRS, odd body shapes (160J, 100A Cherry's, 240K, Skylines S54, Skyline C10 and the Zed cars the most EU type styling of them all)
If money was not object then it would be a S54 Prince/Nissan Skyline and the one Carlos Neate used to race here in NZ that I would love to own and it is a shame it is no longer in NZ but living in Australia where it only comes out for demo laps - I would race it as it was as it should be. However I bet the owner would not sell it + I don't have the coin he would want for the car anyway.
So if ERC is to put up a grid in the 2015 festival what cars do people have issues with? Which cars from the grid are the issues? I think I know which ones people have issues with and I have seen these car at the festival in the past so what actually is the problem??? Or have I missed something?
Dale you mentioned how would I feel if a Hot Rod Datsun Z car was to line up against my period correct car. Well I know that Ray would not allow a Hot Rod Datsun Z in his grid and if one was to appear it would only be once until it is pointed out how much of a hot rod it actually is. This has happened to a Datsun Z car - one that has modern RB30DE with DCOE ITB EFI that currently is listed on Trademe - it is not allowed to race in the ERC grid as it is not a T&C compliant car. So how would I feel - shore it would not be nice to have period correct car getting its A#$ handed to it my a modern engine conversion but it should as hell would be fun to give it a good run for its money showing how old school can still give modern tech a big wake up call. Now that would put a smile on your face
The Datsun Z Club holds a driving training day (at taupo for the last few years) and it is a lot of fun to see modern technology 300ZX twin turbo's with 500+ HP lap slower (not that we are taking lap times but with modern smart phones that have built in stop watch who is not going to just check the difference out) than a old school Datsun 240z with triple carbs a little suspension work go around faster. Sure there might be a 300zx track car there that is quick (Mike Corey) but an equivalent track 240z can be (not always) quicker and that is fun (1400KG va 1000KG might have a lot to do with too)
I have the wrong car for the festival as the Datsun Z cars are GT/Sport Cars so we have to run with cars that are 100% race cars designed for one thing the track. The Datsun Z car is not a big car but towers over the real sports cars who barely come up to a lowered Zed door. I have not raced at a festival but having watched this grid it is not a place I would want to run in and in period the zed did not complete against these sports cars aka Mallocks but against other production based GT cars. By production I am talking about mass produced road going cars.
Years ago I owned a very tidy Datsun 160Jsss and my plan was to race this as a classic car - but this was pre festival but there was no grid for a car like this in Auckland other than clubmans. So I sold the car (which I do regret as they are so rare these days and it was the tidiest ones I have seen that was not hacked up with modern engine) but as it is a 2 door saloon it would have a place in the festival - The Datsun 160Jsss was Datsun must successful rally car so that was shame. So it was sold and I purchase a motorbike again.
So I now have a zed again which does have grid at non Festival events however at the festival there is no suitable grid in my opinion as all production based grids are for Saloons only - even grids like the U3L which will allow non saloons during the season will only accept saloon at the festival.
I know I have wrong car still - I should be racing another Escort or BMW or something. But I like Datsun - they were the Japanese manufacture that was trying something different, they were racing in the US, EU and in AU/NZ with the 1600 and 1200. their cars were different with things like IRS, odd body shapes (160J, 100A Cherry's, 240K, Skylines S54, Skyline C10 and the Zed cars the most EU type styling of them all)
If money was not object then it would be a S54 Prince/Nissan Skyline and the one Carlos Neate used to race here in NZ that I would love to own and it is a shame it is no longer in NZ but living in Australia where it only comes out for demo laps - I would race it as it was as it should be. However I bet the owner would not sell it + I don't have the coin he would want for the car anyway.
So if ERC is to put up a grid in the 2015 festival what cars do people have issues with? Which cars from the grid are the issues? I think I know which ones people have issues with and I have seen these car at the festival in the past so what actually is the problem??? Or have I missed something?
Dale you mentioned how would I feel if a Hot Rod Datsun Z car was to line up against my period correct car. Well I know that Ray would not allow a Hot Rod Datsun Z in his grid and if one was to appear it would only be once until it is pointed out how much of a hot rod it actually is. This has happened to a Datsun Z car - one that has modern RB30DE with DCOE ITB EFI that currently is listed on Trademe - it is not allowed to race in the ERC grid as it is not a T&C compliant car. So how would I feel - shore it would not be nice to have period correct car getting its A#$ handed to it my a modern engine conversion but it should as hell would be fun to give it a good run for its money showing how old school can still give modern tech a big wake up call. Now that would put a smile on your face
The Datsun Z Club holds a driving training day (at taupo for the last few years) and it is a lot of fun to see modern technology 300ZX twin turbo's with 500+ HP lap slower (not that we are taking lap times but with modern smart phones that have built in stop watch who is not going to just check the difference out) than a old school Datsun 240z with triple carbs a little suspension work go around faster. Sure there might be a 300zx track car there that is quick (Mike Corey) but an equivalent track 240z can be (not always) quicker and that is fun (1400KG va 1000KG might have a lot to do with too)
Mike L
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[HR][/HR]
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Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
Although some pics posted on the Legend's thread, here's a few more:
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Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
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Long time racer John Hudson beat the handicapper (again - we forgot to knock him for his earlier win!) and therefore claimed the bottle of Moet.
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Long time racer John Hudson beat the handicapper (again - we forgot to knock him for his earlier win!) and therefore claimed the bottle of Moet.
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Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
Some in car of the second handicap race, I couldn't catch the escort I think Ivan's added nitrous.
Great racing though the handicap was a little tough.
[video=youtube;391b_irbQXY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=391b_irbQXY&list=UUmh5FkC8_PBHRtMuj3FA63w[/video]
Great racing though the handicap was a little tough.
[video=youtube;391b_irbQXY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=391b_irbQXY&list=UUmh5FkC8_PBHRtMuj3FA63w[/video]
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Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
That video is the first handicap Ricky, not the second.
Ivan had flat spotted his treaded tyres and fitted slicks, without telling me - which is of course not allowed. (I have noticed that his left front has been locking up under braking for ages.) This tyre change was noticed by other drivers and an observant pit lane official but it was too late to change the handicap, so he was allowed to run, but romped away, which was a bit naughty.
However, although he was first across the line, the bottle of Moet went to John Sampson who finished second and as you still managed third in race 2, you will have been promoted to second!
Just had a discussion about Dot rated tyres and will be making a ruling clarification shortly.
I haven't looked at your ERC in car as yet, but congratulations for your very restrained driving in the other class, where it appears that there are some people who do not believe in giving the faster cars an easy run through in the handicaps!
PS: Now I have seen the above video, it is pretty obvious why you couldn't get ahead and unfortunately, you only need someone to slow you by 1 second a lap (turn 2/3...) but you are then way back at the finish.
Excellent picture quality by the way.
Ivan had flat spotted his treaded tyres and fitted slicks, without telling me - which is of course not allowed. (I have noticed that his left front has been locking up under braking for ages.) This tyre change was noticed by other drivers and an observant pit lane official but it was too late to change the handicap, so he was allowed to run, but romped away, which was a bit naughty.
However, although he was first across the line, the bottle of Moet went to John Sampson who finished second and as you still managed third in race 2, you will have been promoted to second!
Just had a discussion about Dot rated tyres and will be making a ruling clarification shortly.
I haven't looked at your ERC in car as yet, but congratulations for your very restrained driving in the other class, where it appears that there are some people who do not believe in giving the faster cars an easy run through in the handicaps!
PS: Now I have seen the above video, it is pretty obvious why you couldn't get ahead and unfortunately, you only need someone to slow you by 1 second a lap (turn 2/3...) but you are then way back at the finish.
Excellent picture quality by the way.
Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
The third picture of post 154 epitomizes what ERC is all about. Six car and six different makes, MG, Alfa, Fiat, Renault, BMW and Citroen.
Re: ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
That should be the third picture of post 154