MSNZ Certificate of Description

[Oldfart]

Kiwiboss,sorry dont know who you actually are but would like to reply to your reply. At the time the little Sprite was raced with a group of people who did not much care about COD compliance,as long as you turned up and had a good time and the car is within the period so to speak,a chocolate fish was the prize and that might be for last place ! I consider that the parts on the car were for my enjoyment and others,when the bonnet was lifted and folks saw a shorrock supercharger [including fellow competitors]they were more interested in seeing the technology used than have it sitting in a box on the shelf.The discs brakes were from a car 1 year difference to the last build date of the Sprite.Hell, I only raced it a couple of times for fun !!
Maybe we should take note of the growing trend of VCC racing,they have a range of cars in various forms ie the Gypsy Riley and numerous austin sevens,bucklers etc running a range of different engines etc to my knowledge they just have a good time and certainly provide entertainment to the crowd.
Ross H

Ross you are correct about the VCC field having a good time and huge variety, but they don't even get scrutineered (yes ALL cars are scrutineered, not just audit levels) unless they have a VIC (vehicle identity card) and log book, both issued by VCC at NO cost(!), let alone take part.

[crunch]

Ross you are correct about the VCC field having a good time and huge variety, but they don't even get scrutineered (yes ALL cars are scrutineered, not just audit levels) unless they have a VIC (vehicle identity card) and log book, both issued by VCC at NO cost(!), let alone take part.

Are you sure it is no cost? I only ask as the past President of the VCC has told me different.

[crunch]

Kiwiboss,sorry dont know who you actually are but would like to reply to your reply. At the time the little Sprite was raced with a group of people who did not much care about COD compliance,as long as you turned up and had a good time and the car is within the period so to speak,a chocolate fish was the prize and that might be for last place ! I consider that the parts on the car were for my enjoyment and others,when the bonnet was lifted and folks saw a shorrock supercharger [including fellow competitors]they were more interested in seeing the technology used than have it sitting in a box on the shelf.The discs brakes were from a car 1 year difference to the last build date of the Sprite.Hell, I only raced it a couple of times for fun !!
Maybe we should take note of the growing trend of VCC racing,they have a range of cars in various forms ie the Gypsy Riley and numerous austin sevens,bucklers etc running a range of different engines etc to my knowledge they just have a good time and certainly provide entertainment to the crowd.
Ross H

Totally take your point Ross. And it is a good one. We all do this for fun. I'm sure all the HMC field do this for fun as well...we just have different takes on fun. What you describe reminds me of the good old days of Clubmans racing...and therein lies the rub. What defines the difference between a good old club car and a classic? I know what an Historic car is...

[Oldfart]

Are you sure it is no cost? I only ask as the past President of the VCC has told me different.

Depends whether you are a member. I have just sent off 2 VIC applications and that is what I have to pay, zip, nada, nothing.
The Log book is $10.22 (sorry I missed that huge cost)

[Racer Rog]

The VCC system vehicle identity is quite different to that of a MSNZ CoD and as the H & C Commission has found is quite wanting in terms of what is and what isn't pre 1960, and while they will give a VIC to later dated cars, they can not run in MSNZ events. They were made a offer from MSNZ on this issue over a year ago, but have yet to reply.
IN terms of dating, what the CoD is trying to establish, is the year of representation, not the year the vehicle was made, Nigel Russell made a very good presentation of this at the last AGCM in Wellington if anybody can remember back that far, so he pop up here and explain it again using his vast tech skills on the computer, as the example he used is close to my heart.
Roger

[Oldfart]

Roger, without defending (or offending) either system, the views which are being represented on this thread seem to me to be generally that the MSNZ system is found wanting, at least by those giving their views. There is no question that the systems are different. That does not mean that either does not meet the needs of their members, nor does it mean that either totally meets the needs.
You do need to be careful in using the term "pre 1960" as the agreement is for CIRCUIT events pre 31 December 1960, which more accurately would be "pre 1961". The VCC card is for all dating of VCC eligible vehicles (30 year rule) not just to suit circuit events. In reality the vast majority of VCC cards would be issued for other than speed events.

[Racer Rog]

Yes you are correct in the date, I was assuming that most would know that the actual date is 31-12-1960, but should have made it a little clearer, and it is true that they are different. and that you can run vehicles in certain events that date later than that, but not in circuit racing.
The feed back we are getting from this thread is great, but the point I was making was that in IMHO the CoD that MSNZ issues, to vehicles is a more robust system than that used by the VCC, not perfect, but more robust and I think we are coming to grips with it, and what is being expressed here is being taken onboard, but we would still like to hear from a greater number of people, on any issues that effect H & C Racing under MSNZ.
Roger

[ERC]

Phew!

Some great stuff there, but having just returned from Taupo, with 188 competitors, a fair bit of drama but some great racing, only a quick skim through.

In the words of the commentator "How on earth can you make one make scratch races sound interesting, when quite plainly, they are only of interest to the drivers?"

JAFA has it nailed (Dale!). Groups of five or six Escorts/MGBs/Capris in a procession and only a handful of makes models represented is the fastest way to kill the very appeal of classics.

Telling drivers they should dump their rare/old/interesting cars may appeal to you but certainly not the majority of spectators. You did expect a response Dale! I have huge respect for what you are trying to achieve, but non of the strict COD rules series have yet taken off and until they do, turning up with just 4 cars at a meeting, doesn't really set an example that proves that the other non-COD series wish to emulate.

I don't disagree with dumping CoD's if and where and when they are not required, but whilst we may pay a degree of lip service to the very letter of the T & C rules and with the option of CoD's, where we recognise the inherent failings of the system, we are going to be having this same old discussion until such times as guys with unusual and rare cars, mildly modified if need be, are denied the opportunity to run.

It will be a sad day indeed when and if that ever happens. If the purist meeting organisers want to limit their entries to CoD only cars there is absolutely nothing to stop them - right now. The (Ferrari) Festival is an invitation event as are one or two of TACCOC meetings and the successes or otherwise are judged on the obvious evidence - support.

A Sprite with a Shorrock supercharger is welcome to enter our series and I have already provisionally accepted the ex-Naidu MGB - why? Because they are not yet another pair of Ford Escorts!

[Oldfart]

I am left to wonder how a car with a "robust" CoD which dates it as representing the "period 1958" can have a 4.2 litre Jag motor. And before anyone leaps in, this is far from an isolated case. VCC branches have refused entry because we are told we must be squeaky clean on our agreement with Motorsport (pre 61) yet this car (and others) have these clearly incorrect dating from Motorsport CoD. Yes, they are issued on information given, but surely there is sufficient knowledge of engine introduction dates?
I am sorry if this has offended the owners of these vehicles, it is not intentional, but real cases are needed to point out shortcomings, and of course there are instances of incorrect VCC cards. (Again based on dubious information provided).

[ERC]

There are many anomalies Oldfart, both on refusals and acceptances. Most of us with a passing knowledge over the last few years know of many.

The Riley Moth is possibly the best possible advert in recent times as to why the VCC have got things more right than wrong.

It wasn't built in period; it is a machine in the grand traditions of Kiwi ingenuity (a modern day Lycoming?); it is a huge crowd favourite - and I love it to bits!

VCC meetings are still showing diversity whether period or not so quite why MSNZ can't accept the same philosophy I really don't know.

CoD's do have a place, just not for all cars, regardless.

[nzeder]

As someone getting a car ready for the track all of this does play a lot on my mind and what I am doing with the direction of the build.

I have said it before so I was say it again. I will get a CoD and only because of what has already been stated. If the time comes and cars are turned away due to non CoD or denied for not conforming to T&C I don't want to be the guy who has a car in the shed that can't race. That is the sole reason I will do this.

Crunch did say is it classics or clubmans? Well back in the 90's when I last had a racecar on the track in a racing meeting it was clubmans aka Auckland car club events that I mainly entered my Datsun 240z in. I had lots of fun by was completely out classed by V8 power muscle cars as I had 6 cylinders I was not allowed to play with the 4 cylinder cars even though they were lapping more around my times.

So I want to run in a grid that has 2 things.

1. Car of similar era and a good mix of makes and models.
2. Most importantly cars that will not lap me on lap 6 of an 8 lap race like Phil Schubert and Dean Perkins used to.

This time around I want to race in a grid of cars that is closer in laptimes or has good handicap setup to even out any performance different (be that performance be car, with or without CoD, driving skill) and have a good driving standard.

[nzeder]

Personally; I think that comment has a lot of merit. It probably all started when the COD was initially given to every car that was around when the system started! So the system was flawed right from the start. Gone is any meaningful sense of the word Throughbred from our sport.
I did try to bring H&C more into line with the CAMS model about 6 years ago, but was met with a lynch mob at an Auckland meeting who wanted to string me up by the proverbials for daring to suggest it.

Tuesday will be interesting...

Right thought see if we can keep this stuff going over here this time.

As discussed here and other post there appears to be bit of concern about the COD process - some related to the statement above I guess - with cars in the start of the COD system all getting one. One of the issues I see it is some have cars that have COD that today would not get one or at least have a B or C version at best. Then there is the talk about series like ERC who don't enforce a COD. We also go back to when TACCOC insisted on cars entering a meeting/meetings to have a COD or non entry was the result.

So why is the system not working for Production based Classics? How can it be resolved? What is the way forward?

[crunch]

Right thought see if we can keep this stuff going over here this time.

As discussed here and other post there appears to be bit of concern about the COD process - some related to the statement above I guess - with cars in the start of the COD system all getting one. One of the issues I see it is some have cars that have COD that today would not get one or at least have a B or C version at best. Then there is the talk about series like ERC who don't enforce a COD. We also go back to when TACCOC insisted on cars entering a meeting/meetings to have a COD or non entry was the result.

So why is the system not working for Production based Classics? How can it be resolved? What is the way forward?

It should.
If your car fits either Schedule K or T&C rules, then you get a COD.
Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean?

[nzeder]

Crunch,

I guess I thought I would try and keep the discussion going on here - I understand the rules, I get that, I don't personally see what the issues is with the COD process or the Schedule T&C or K rules.

Anyone building a car should read and understand the rules. You could say with NZ focus on Saloon cars I have chosen the incorrect car to race here in NZ as the grid selection is small.

Just from the posts in other threads and this one it seems people are building outside of the rules or modifying existing cars outside of the rules. The question is why is this the case? Why are people stepping outside the rules when building or racing a saloon/sport> car here in NZ and why don't some competitors get COD's or update their COD's after changes are made.

As you have stated back in that meeting a few years back, if not it is clubman racer.

I am trying to understand what is the big issue with all this? I can understand both side of the argument too. NZ motor racing history is full of cars that are one of specials/one of kind modified in the Kiwi way. I don't need to list the cars I am talking about most know them well - but they are very unique but we were not alone in doing that just that we allowed it to carry on for longer before the rules changed.

[ERC]

Some interesting discussion today at the Auckland meeting. I'll let the commission members respond!

Although not a formal vote, most were very supportive of Crunch being up front on here and it was obvious that this forum performs a very valuable service, by promoting open discussion which is essential. It's a pity that there aren't even more contributors so that we get a better representation as to what drivers and supporters want.

[Alan Hyndman]

Crunch,

I guess I thought I would try and keep the discussion going on here - I understand the rules, I get that, I don't personally see what the issues is with the COD process or the Schedule T&C or K rules.

Anyone building a car should read and understand the rules. You could say with NZ focus on Saloon cars I have chosen the incorrect car to race here in NZ as the grid selection is small.

Just from the posts in other threads and this one it seems people are building outside of the rules or modifying existing cars outside of the rules. The question is why is this the case? Why are people stepping outside the rules when building or racing a saloon/sport> car here in NZ and why don't some competitors get COD's or update their COD's after changes are made.

As you have stated back in that meeting a few years back, if not it is clubman racer.

I am trying to understand what is the big issue with all this? I can understand both side of the argument too. NZ motor racing history is full of cars that are one of specials/one of kind modified in the Kiwi way. I don't need to list the cars I am talking about most know them well - but they are very unique but we were not alone in doing that just that we allowed it to carry on for longer before the rules changed.

Hi Mike,

If I can just touch on a couple of points in post #54, one reason people don't read and understand the rules is because they don't know where to find them. It's fine for we competition licence holders to pick up a copy of the MotorSport Manual or dredge through http://www.motorsport.org.nz to find the online version but you would be amazed at the people who want to build cars that are not in MSNZ affiliated clubs and have no idea what the rules are or how to find them. Case in point is this 240Z that's been on TradeMe for a while, built for the owner and called "a true classic race car". Yeah, sorry, not with that engine!
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/specialist-cars/competition-cars/auction-671646056.htm

So if a professional race car builder (actually, I'm assuming that's what Herbert Fabrications are) can't build a car to the rules how can we expect a guy doing it himself to do so? Hmm, probably just got myself in a heap of trouble here so I'll add it's possible the owner didn't tell the builder he wanted the car to conform to Schedule T&C (or Schedule K). Either way, Joe Public now looks at this car on TradeMe and concludes that slapping an engine from the 1980s/1990s into a car from the early 1970s is acceptable for classic racing.

Regarding why people don't get CODs or don't update them (and speaking from Wellington), I know of at least one competitor who doesn't want to get a COD as he is perpetually modifying his car and considers having to update a COD every year (or every time he races) an unnecessary and ultimately sizeable expense. Sure, he's not had the car out for a few years now, but the point is that he's probably not the only person who thinks this way. Certainly while there are events run that don't require a COD then some competitors will not be inclined to hand over their money for a document that gives them no advantage.

A point that I (as an event organiser) feel can't be stressed enough, is that there just isn't a big enough pool of cars in NZ to be that choosey if you want an event to be economically viable. A catch 22 situation I know, as we all want more 100% legal cars at events but they tend to be slower than the cars built outside the rules - but if you turn away the cars just outside the rules you might not have enough entries to hold a meeting.

I don't have an answer for this but one point that was mentioned to me once was, insurance companies will seize on any reason not to pay out on a claim. If a car at a classic event causes so much damage that an insurance claim is triggered and that car turns out to be outside T&C (or K) rules, will the insurance company refuse to pay out? Similarly, if the police attend a classic/historic motorsport event accident and their investigations uncover that a car involved was modified outside the rules (e.g. Nissan RB30 engine with twincam head off an RB26, installed in a 240Z) then do they have an avenue for charging the driver, the eligibility officer(s) or the Clerk of the Course? If so, would this encourage better compliance? Okay, maybe I do have an answer.

Cheers,
Alan Hyndman.

[Paul Wilkinson]

Just a note that Mark Herbert does fantastic work and obviously builds what his customers ask and pay for! If you want something built to a strict set of rules - done! If you want to follow your own direction/vision - he'll make that happen for you too. I had a fair bit of fabrication done by Herbert Fabrication some years ago now and it was never short of superb, putting paint on it always made me a bit sad, truth be told!

If you follow the insurance company chain of thought, you probably also run into liability issues for organisers, despite waivers etc. Not a nice route to go down!

[AMCO72]

That Datsun is one sharp looking car. I doubt you could build it for the asking price. Wonder why the owner wants to sell........perhaps no class to race in.......although I'm sure there is, but not at the Festival............perhaps Sports Sedans LOL.

Seems a shame to turn a rare car like that into a 'hotrod', but as Paul says, if that is what you want, you can have it, and to hell with the purists.

[John McKechnie]

Gerald- owner is already running his other car in Historic Sports Sedans March 29-30

[ERC]

Good post Alan. That particular Z (now on TM) is a superb car and as you suggest, probably what was asked for. The current owner also has a Capri Perana (as do several other drivers!) and ran the Z in our series at the first round of the season when I was still overseas, but driven by his son.

On my return, when going through the results, it was blatantly obvious even to me, that the car was way too fast compared to any other car in the grid and I was alerted by the other drivers that the engine was outside our rules, so the owner was told that he couldn't run it again. He accepted that with good grace.

The insurance issue is an interesting one but going back to the Queenstown fatalities, it was a big wake up call for event organisers and also series organisers. If the CoD is mandatory at an event and stated in the ASRs, then no car can run without one.

If as in our series, a CoD is stated in the rules as optional and a race promoter accepts our group running to our rules, then it shouldn't be an issue.

You are correct about the minefield of building cars within the rules (not just MSNZ or T & C rules) as many workshops are totally unaware of the rules regarding cars on several levels, particularly in the case of a car that is either freshly imported or de-registered and is to be built as a road legal, but modified road car and is also to be used in competition.

Some workshops (as I have found out to my cost) can end up costing the customer many thousands of dollars extra, due to their ignorance of the various sets of rules.

The CoD rules have also changed over the years and at the meeting yesterday, more than one person was caught out by referring to a printed manual that had been superseded - and this was in a room of club representatives/experts!

My personal view is that the CoD should be a 3 or even 4 tiered system.

1) Complete as per the current document/procedure for cars deemed to be genuinely historic and needing to conform to a specific period of time or a set of rules in force at that time, with evidence supplied by the applicant. This documentation is part of the history and provenance of the vehicle and one would think that no changes to that car would ever be allowed. For this document, the price of application and processing is on the high side but as the car is potentially worth good money, that shouldn't be a problem.

2) Similar to the above but for a car built to Appendix K or Schedule K, in other words, a Cortina converted to a Lotus Cortina or a Mini converted to a Mini Cooper S or a faithful replica or recreation of a specific historic car that no longer exists.

3) A classic car that is outside the above criteria but has been modified with period modifications that presumably conforms to the T & C rules of the time. This is a dodgy one as the T & C Rules are not universally accepted and is still a sticking point. The application forms and documentation need to cover Alan's point as mentioned above and as raised at previous meetings, that a car may be progressively modified even within the rules and should not need to keep being resubmitted.

4) A totally standard production car running the original engine, gearbox, wheels, brakes, interior, but maybe with the replacement of the driver's seat, seat belts and maybe basic roll over protection that does not mean the headlining is removed. All this level needs is a simple one page declaration with just 4 pics. a) front three-quarter b) Rear three-quarter, c) engine/under bonnet d) interior. Countersigned by either a scrutineer, marque expert or series co-ordinator. Simple and cheap and would probably get a lot more people on board and into the system.