NEW CLASS / SERIES; Historic Sports Sedans. formation meeting.20/04/13 ACC

[John McKechnie]

Ray- this is extremely informative and well spelt out .
No rose tinted lenses when it comes to reality.

[Habu]

Obviously the ACC is not going to hold the door open for a class that never fronts and hey who can blame them. I Naively thought with the number of cars already going and all the others sitting around and the people I had talked to who "only needed to put a set of valve springs in" or "needed to rebuild this" or "repaint that" and their enthusiasm for a class that they didnt have to run against the latest DOHC turbo 4WD road car that can lap 3 secs faster in road form than their race car and the fact that this new series would also put some serious value back into their car would be a "no brainer", and thats why I spent 32K on 2 vehicles to help make up the grid and flyers and stickers Toll calls, not to mention hassling 2 people into driving the 2 cars and a lot of hard work to promote it. The spectators who want this to happen by the biggest turn out of people to a club meeting in the last 10 years showed their support for it, the only thing missing was the cars and drivers. To be honest I think Roger Davis summed it up pretty good. Hopefully in the not too distant future someone will get enough cars to get it up and running and if they want the siddy and me to join in then I will run , but untill then I am just going to put her back in moth balls as I refuse to run the car against late model stuff that will detract from the mighty achievements of this great old battle bus. But enough of all that old negativity. Dennis Running and I are busting to have a good drive again and are so dissapointed about all that, we have decided that seeing as how we both still have several Trans am cars each and know there are 10 cars laying around, "STILL GOING" and that those guys can be trusted to front!! we are going to take over the redundant NZHSS spot with the ACC and will run a full series for SCCA Trans am cars starting next season. George jnr has just imported a TA Camaro from the US and is a confirmed starter, as is Alan Ferguson Corvette, Barry Search Camaro, and Andy Greenslade 2 x Jaguars. so in a day or two when I get a chance I will be starting a new thread for it. So there you are , it just goes to show good things can start from different beginnings. I also need to thank the few competitors who did front up for that innaugural meeting of NZHSS, hey boys , we gave it a go!!

Just like to say thank you George, for all the effort you and other car owners went to the trouble, time and effort of making the HSS class a reality and running at HD.

Although I am disappointed that the series will not continue in its present form, primarily due to those who gave a commitment to run, and then let you and other car owners/drivers down, I will continue to spectate and look forward to the new Trans Am series that you speak of.

Stoked that I saw the Sidchrome Mustang run again, and got to introduce my 17 year old son to cars from an era that really ignited a passion for motorsport back when I was a kid.

[touringcarfan]

Obviously the ACC is not going to hold the door open for a class that never fronts and hey who can blame them. I Naively thought with the number of cars already going and all the others sitting around and the people I had talked to who "only needed to put a set of valve springs in" or "needed to rebuild this" or "repaint that" and their enthusiasm for a class that they didnt have to run against the latest DOHC turbo 4WD road car that can lap 3 secs faster in road form than their race car and the fact that this new series would also put some serious value back into their car would be a "no brainer", and thats why I spent 32K on 2 vehicles to help make up the grid and flyers and stickers Toll calls, not to mention hassling 2 people into driving the 2 cars and a lot of hard work to promote it. The spectators who want this to happen by the biggest turn out of people to a club meeting in the last 10 years showed their support for it, the only thing missing was the cars and drivers. To be honest I think Roger Davis summed it up pretty good. Hopefully in the not too distant future someone will get enough cars to get it up and running and if they want the siddy and me to join in then I will run , but untill then I am just going to put her back in moth balls as I refuse to run the car against late model stuff that will detract from the mighty achievements of this great old battle bus. But enough of all that old negativity. Dennis Running and I are busting to have a good drive again and are so dissapointed about all that, we have decided that seeing as how we both still have several Trans am cars each and know there are 10 cars laying around, "STILL GOING" and that those guys can be trusted to front!! we are going to take over the redundant NZHSS spot with the ACC and will run a full series for SCCA Trans am cars starting next season. George jnr has just imported a TA Camaro from the US and is a confirmed starter, as is Alan Ferguson Corvette, Barry Search Camaro, and Andy Greenslade 2 x Jaguars. so in a day or two when I get a chance I will be starting a new thread for it. So there you are , it just goes to show good things can start from different beginnings. I also need to thank the few competitors who did front up for that innaugural meeting of NZHSS, hey boys , we gave it a go!!

Hi George

You certainly gave NZHSS your all and at the end of the day the car owners needed to play ball. I am certainly interested in your next venture for SCCA Trans Ams. I will wait for the new thread as I have a lot of questions regarding these cars.

Cheers

Anthony Sampson

[John McKechnie]

Last post is demeaning, belittling and insulting- car owners not playing ball ?
George had spent a few years getting his car ready, and the seal went on him and didnt race at the first meeting. And I didnt see the Sidchrome Mustang , I saw the Shewiery Mustang.
This whole thing came together very quickly. Others needed time to get their cars ready, and George knows how long it takes to prepare a car.
Full marks to those who got there to the inaugural meeting, we loved the show.
I feel for the guys who slaved to meet the deadlines, didnt make it.
And now they get kicked, slandered and abused- these are the guys who make up the field and have done the hard yards.
These cars are far too valuable and as some such as the Addis Charger and the Algie Monaro have been laid up for too long to rush out unprepared.
And to hear that he went out and bought extra cars to make up the field when I made it public Barry needed some money for a radiator and he would have been there.
George decided to move on but these guys still have their cars , they want to finish them and run them.
And they will because they WANT to, for themselves and for you.
In the meantime, show these owners and the cars some respect and support

All owners should be respected for their efforts, and take heart to continue - from someone who didnt get there in time.

Anything Historic needs patience and acceptance of what it means to be historic.- my earlier post.

I

[touringcarfan]

Last post is demeaning, belittling and insulting- car owners not playing ball ?
George had spent a few years getting his car ready, and the seal went on him and didnt race at the first meeting. And I didnt see the Sidchrome Mustang , I saw the Shewiery Mustang.
This whole thing came together very quickly. Others needed time to get their cars ready, and George knows how long it takes to prepare a car.
Full marks to those who got there to the inaugural meeting, we loved the show.
I feel for the guys who slaved to meet the deadlines, didnt make it.
And now they get kicked, slandered and abused- these are the guys who make up the field and have done the hard yards.
These cars are far too valuable and as some such as the Addis Charger and the Algie Monaro have been laid up for too long to rush out unprepared.
And to hear that he went out and bought extra cars to make up the field when I made it public Barry needed some money for a radiator and he would have been there.
George decided to move on but these guys still have their cars , they want to finish them and run them.
And they will because they WANT to, for themselves and for you.
In the meantime, show these owners and the cars some respect and support

All owners should be respected for their efforts, and take heart to continue - from someone who didnt get there in time.

Anything Historic needs patience and acceptance of what it means to be historic.- my earlier post.

I

Fair enough John, but why put your hand up when it`s obvious you might never make it to the deadline?

Anthony

[John McKechnie]

My XA is NOT a Historic Sports Sedan, so therefore not entitled to be there.
As such, my car was never in Georges plan.
Second point is that at THAT moment my car was a runner.
Later ,it wasnt and I emailed George well in advance that I was not able to run .
This thread is about Historic Sports Sedans and shaping its future .

[touringcarfan]

Sorry John, I wasn`t asking that question of you personally.

Anthony

[George Sheweiry]

Last post is demeaning, belittling and insulting- car owners not playing ball ?
George had spent a few years getting his car ready, and the seal went on him and didnt race at the first meeting. And I didnt see the Sidchrome Mustang , I saw the Shewiery Mustang.
This whole thing came together very quickly. Others needed time to get their cars ready, and George knows how long it takes to prepare a car.
Full marks to those who got there to the inaugural meeting, we loved the show.
I feel for the guys who slaved to meet the deadlines, didnt make it.
And now they get kicked, slandered and abused- these are the guys who make up the field and have done the hard yards.
These cars are far too valuable and as some such as the Addis Charger and the Algie Monaro have been laid up for too long to rush out unprepared.
And to hear that he went out and bought extra cars to make up the field when I made it public Barry needed some money for a radiator and he would have been there.
George decided to move on but these guys still have their cars , they want to finish them and run them.
And they will because they WANT to, for themselves and for you.
In the meantime, show these owners and the cars some respect and support

All owners should be respected for their efforts, and take heart to continue - from someone who didnt get there in time.

Anything Historic needs patience and acceptance of what it means to be historic.- my earlier post.

I

Well Johnny that was a nice little attempt to lay all this on me, its a shame theres just a nasty little thing called the facts to get in its way. Firstly after talking to people about these old cars and finding there was interest in starting a class I canvassed everyone as to would they run their cars if I could arrange a series for them to run in beginning September and could they make the first meeting. 80% said yes, and no I was not holding a gun to their head. So much for the " came together very quickly and needed time to get ready.
second "and the seal went on him and didnt race at the first meeting" Hello Johnny I paid my entry fee and was there and did practice!! Yes I should have had the car for a test day but instead I was slacking, rebuilding the engine and fitting it back into my daughters car and helping my son with the gearbox in his Falcon, having to buy and organize 2 other cars and drivers to run them because I was worried I was going to be let down, run my electrical business, correspond with all the others (email and phone), try and help with my 84 yr old mothers failing health issues, liaise with the car club, and try to finish my car with my sons help in the 2 last days, finally loading it in the transporter 1.30am Saturday night!!! and what were you doing at that time Johnny!! Oh and by the way you announced Barry needed a new radiator AFTER I had said on this forum that I had bought the 2 cars. and so what does that mean , that I should pay for everyone's parts so they can go racing!!!!! And yes after sidchrome declining both times I put Sheweiry on the car cause I couldn't afford to be sued by them if they really didn't want it on. So tell me again how I let this deal down, Didnt do enough Maybe!!! So thanks very much for let me see, what was your quote for the owners of these cars??? Oh thats right some respect and support!!

[Frosty5]

Well Johnny that was a nice little attempt to lay all this on me, its a shame theres just a nasty little thing called the facts to get in its way. Firstly after talking to people about these old cars and finding there was interest in starting a class I canvassed everyone as to would they run their cars if I could arrange a series for them to run in beginning September and could they make the first meeting. 80% said yes, and no I was not holding a gun to their head. So much for the " came together very quickly and needed time to get ready.
second "and the seal went on him and didnt race at the first meeting" Hello Johnny I paid my entry fee and was there and did practice!! Yes I should have had the car for a test day but instead I was slacking, rebuilding the engine and fitting it back into my daughters car and helping my son with the gearbox in his Falcon, having to buy and organize 2 other cars and drivers to run them because I was worried I was going to be let down, run my electrical business, correspond with all the others (email and phone), try and help with my 84 yr old mothers failing health issues, liaise with the car club, and try to finish my car with my sons help in the 2 last days, finally loading it in the transporter 1.30am Saturday night!!! and what were you doing at that time Johnny!! Oh and by the way you announced Barry needed a new radiator AFTER I had said on this forum that I had bought the 2 cars. and so what does that mean , that I should pay for everyone's parts so they can go racing!!!!! And yes after sidchrome declining both times I put Sheweiry on the car cause I couldn't afford to be sued by them if they really didn't want it on. So tell me again how I let this deal down, Didnt do enough Maybe!!! So thanks very much for let me see, what was your quote for the owners of these cars??? Oh thats right some respect and support!!

I am stunned by the opening line of a members comments (Last post is demeaning, belittling and insulting- car owners not playing ball?) and need to comment. Unless I am sadly mistaken this is a "I told you so" line and it pains me to see that a fellow member has the temerity to comment like that. You put in a monumental effort to get this class up and running only to be let down by those who were so enthusiastic at the beginning. I guess they all have their reasons for not fronting up and that is something that needs to be accepted, unpalatable as it may be. But I think those who witnessed the initial debut of the class were mightily impressed and you should take heart from that. This was not a failure in my view but more of a speed bump. While I am not suggesting for one moment this should happen to you I think the sentiments are apt given the previous outburst.
"To do something well is so worthwhile that to die trying to do it better cannot be foolhardy. It would be a waste of life to do nothing with one's ability, for I feel that life is measured in achievement, not in years alone. Bruce McLaren.
And by God you certainly have achieved in life George. Take care, chin up and look forward.
Best regards
Dave Graham

[George Sheweiry]

Look thanks for those kind words Dave, and to all the others who have said kind things. Its very humbling to hear such praise but that was not my reason for doing this, its just that it seemed like it was what everyone wanted, hey including myself, to have these neat old cars out there. I guess as well it is good to have criticisms as well as then you can readdress the issue and of course make changes to anything you may have missed or not thought of but that is not easy to listen to either as you can see from my reaction. I am a car guy, always have and always will be and yes I now move away from this "exercise" as I have completely run out of ideas to get these people motivated and their cars out there, so my use to this proposed series is at an end for me and this is only because I am one of those dumb "do it guys", I virtually dont have a social life as I find it hard to relax, that's why you never see me at the pub or out and about other than things to do with cars or my family. Boring Aye! but that is one of my failings, I am also not one bit PC but if you want my opinion you will get it, not done with mirrors and shadows and as well, if I have something to say I say it, so Sorry to anyone I have unwittingly offended. But any way enough of me and what could be and couldn't etc. Thanks of course to Steve Holmes we have a great information channel that is a good way indeed of thrashing all this old stuff about and I think enough has been said about all this and again thank you all for the heart felt support but it is time to move on and forward and you never know something may eventually happen, Fingers crossed aye. Regards, Shrewsberry.

[ERC]

Rome wasn't built in a day...

Maybe some people expect too much too soon? I can undertstand ACC's position, but we all know that there is a need for this class as I said before, it is the missing link. It is the only class of cars I can think of, that currently doesn't have a place to race.

Maybe I should take a long hard look at our own two groups as if our own active numbers don't increase, then maybe we can push a few of the slower guys in the fast group, down in to the slower group to re-boost their numbers and create another class within the faster group.

Then the issue would probably be (from both groups), "No, we racers with our older race saloons, don't want to race against Porsches, MGB V8s, TR7 V8s, Capris (6 & 8 cyl), Ferrari etc", and our Sports/GT drivers running on road tyres, might well object to racing against race cars on slicks...

The other logical mix - and probably more sensible is for the race saloons to race with the Historic Muscle Cars as in both cases, the numbers are not yet there. Steve, Dale and Tony have a solid set of rules for their own cars, but at this stage, they cannot yet field a cost effective grid. Surely this is the most logical step forward as even with the vast pubicity the HMC has had over the last couple of years, on here and in print - plus backing from the Historic Commission, being realistic, the reality of a consistently cost effective grid in the future is still some time away.

I may get shot down for this, but at the real end of the day, race meetings do have to be cost effective and if drivers can't cope with another class of cars sharing "their grid", the answer has been noted earlier. No one (or two or even three) driver(s) is bigger than the class and let's not forget it.

The U3L grid shares the track with the HMC at non-series meetings. The commonality however is not the cars, it is the CoD or the perceived rules.

[rogered]

Rome wasn't built in a day...

Maybe some people expect too much too soon? I can undertstand ACC's position, but we all know that there is a need for this class as I said before, it is the missing link. It is the only class of cars I can think of, that currently doesn't have a place to race.

Maybe I should take a long hard look at our own two groups as if our own active numbers don't increase, then maybe we can push a few of the slower guys in the fast group, down in to the slower group to re-boost their numbers and create another class within the faster group.

Then the issue would probably be (from both groups), "No, we racers with our older race saloons, don't want to race against Porsches, MGB V8s, TR7 V8s, Capris (6 & 8 cyl), Ferrari etc", and our Sports/GT drivers running on road tyres, might well object to racing against race cars on slicks...

The other logical mix - and probably more sensible is for the race saloons to race with the Historic Muscle Cars as in both cases, the numbers are not yet there. Steve, Dale and Tony have a solid set of rules for their own cars, but at this stage, they cannot yet field a cost effective grid. Surely this is the most logical step forward as even with the vast pubicity the HMC has had over the last couple of years, on here and in print - plus backing from the Historic Commission, being realistic, the reality of a consistently cost effective grid in the future is still some time away.

I may get shot down for this, but at the real end of the day, race meetings do have to be cost effective and if drivers can't cope with another class of cars sharing "their grid", the answer has been noted earlier. No one (or two or even three) driver(s) is bigger than the class and let's not forget it.

The U3L grid shares the track with the HMC at non-series meetings. The commonality however is not the cars, it is the CoD or the perceived rules.

"sharing" a grid in some form with HMC on a meeting by meeting basis is something that has crossed my mind, while both have smaller numbers. . Maybe something along the line of starting each class with a half lap space.? and only with the blessing or invite from HMC so as not to offend.

[touringcarfan]

I wish to apologise for my comment regarding drivers playing ball. It was said based on my simple philosophy of `if you make a commitment you stick to it`. This may have been a bit harsh and I really don`t go out of my way to offend people, so sorry.

Anthony

[Rod Grimwood]

"sharing" a grid in some form with HMC on a meeting by meeting basis is something that has crossed my mind, while both have smaller numbers. . Maybe something along the line of starting each class with a half lap space.? and only with the blessing or invite from HMC so as not to offend.

Just got computer back after 2 weeks and been away so bit behind

This email answer I sent to some of the guys tonight. just my way of looking at it.

Roger you are thinking in the direction I have been.

Copy email;

Guy's for what it is worth my thoughts are:

This will not happen over night, (it hasn't) and if as cars become ready/available and they appear at classic meetings (who will put them in some class to have a run) and the numbers pick up then the groups running the meetings will make room available to run the cars.
The reality is at the moment, you will have to run with later (or re-engined) similar cars that are quicker, but I think just to run the car and don't worry about how fast others are and look after your cars is the priority. I do not think the realistic motorsport person would expect the 'Siddy', 'Charger', or 'Alfetta' to be quicker than the 'Merc' or later Trans Ams but will pay more attention to them. I believe, Just run the cars as time and money will allow to finish them, and some people who have other commitments at different times, cut them some slack, as they will (already do) run at classic meetings and you will all end up together.

I am only a small player and only filled out fields in old days, but when I do run my car it will be a real slug as I do not have the latest tech engine etc. I will be against Lotus twin cams which make alot more now than old days, and Cosworths etc.

But will have my chilly bin as in old days.

Lets just chill and get on with what we are doing.

Cheers
Rod Grimwood

[rogered]

Wise words

[ERC]

The reality is at the moment, you will have to run with later (or re-engined) similar cars that are quicker, but I think just to run the car and don't worry about how fast others are and look after your cars is the priority.

And that gentleman is it in a nutshell. It is not now and never has been and never will be, a level playing field. The other cars can't all be quicker so there is a natural grouping by lap times. As long as no one expects to get the vacant seat at McLaren and gives everyone racing room, all is sweet.

[AMCO72]

Rod,I think you are selling yourself a bit short there when you say that 'you only filled out fields in the old days'.

In my experience it is the Guys that 'only filled out the fields' that had the best racing, while the Hot-Shots roared off into the distance!
The racing would be pretty damn boring if there were not the `'amateurs'......read impecunious.......competitors providing most of the thrills, and yes spills, of racing.

As ERC says........'it is not now, never has been, and never will be a level playing field. How true. Viva the 'Field Fillers'!!!!!!!

[George Sheweiry]

Rod,I think you are selling yourself a bit short there when you say that 'you only filled out fields in the old days'.

In my experience it is the Guys that 'only filled out the fields' that had the best racing, while the Hot-Shots roared off into the distance!
The racing would be pretty damn boring if there were not the `'amateurs'......read impecunious.......competitors providing most of the thrills, and yes spills, of racing.

As ERC says........'it is not now, never has been, and never will be a level playing field. How true. Viva the 'Field Fillers'!!!!!!!

You are dead right there Gerald. I would doubt whether there was any more than a couple of tenths in driving ability between the whole field. Its just that probably 90% of the guys were there doin it out of their back pockets and probably didn't give a toss where they finished but they did what they could with what they had. Also car setup etc was so secretive most of those guys were doing a bloody good job driving bad handling cars! That's why I liked the handicap races so much cause 1/ it was great to watch instead of a procession and 2/ it gave those guys a chance. It always used to annoy me watching a race and someone was saying oh look how slow that guy is, he should'nt be out there, but he was out there and not sitting on his ass but giving it a go. Good on the Battlers!!

[Ellis]

Mid fielders have all the fun and can see the race and be part of it.

The leader just has an open track and no cars ....

Handicap stuff is lots more interesting for all concerned as George said.

Ellis

[ERC]

Spot on. Which is one of the major reasons I have given up racing at the Festival meetings at Hampton Downs.

Running around in glorious isolation at or near the very back the back of the field - even if you have beaten your best time ever - is no fun at all. You don't see another car for 5 or 6 of the 8 laps then the leaders just gobble you up and you finish the race having only completed 7 laps. I'd rather pay $135 and do a Play Day, or, one of our series races, or, take photographs of the nice cars at the Festival.

If I finish last in a handicap race, I still get 8 laps and I generally have the mirrors full for most of the race and I feel part of the action.