CHEATING.

[928]

Who said you did?....not me.

I don't even know who you are.

well side stepped greg

[Greg Mackie]

No side-stepping, 928.

My reasons for agreeing with Russ Cunningham [who doesn't mind using his name] were not aimed at you personally....just cheats in general.

If the only way a driver can win is by cheating, it must surely be a hollow victory?

[Steve Emson]

Funny you should mention this. Only a couple of days ago I was reading in one of my books that after he left HDT he became the technical scrutineer for CAMS. His first job was to inspect the HDT cars and order some parts taken off of them. HDT responded with. "But Harry you put them there!"

A couple of great quotes.

One by Douglas Bader (WW2 Fighter Pilot)
"Rules are for the guidance of wise men & the obedience of fools"

Unknown
"May the best cheat win"

Another funny little story I heard of Harry Firth (the king of bending rules to breaking point) from the 70's after he left Ford & went to HDT. He put in a complaint about illegal parts being used on the falcons. When he was questioned about how he would know about those parts. He replied I put them on!"

Also in the days of the Cortina GT, to qualify the cars to be production cars all parts had to be listed in the factory parts catalogue & available in the local dealer. So Harry would re write the Ford parts catalogue & make a few available to certain people.
A couple of days before the race a crate would arrive at the local ford dealers that no one but Harry was allowed to open. If the scrutineers questioned the parts used on his car, he would pull out his special parts catalogue & then take them down to the dealer & crack open the crate showing that the parts were available at the Ford dealer. Not cheating but cutting it very close.

[928]

yes Steve, well known fact:- to catch a cheater use an ex cheater

[928]

No side-stepping, 928.

My reasons for agreeing with Russ Cunningham [who doesn't mind using his name] were not aimed at you personally....just cheats in general.

If the only way a driver can win is by cheating, it must surely be a hollow victory?

yes but still a win. who remembers who was second.
another little story for russ
my car was wheeled onto the weighbridge after a race win and the scrutineer stepped back and said "your car is underweight".
I replied "what is that for"
he said "F5000"
"how about for an F1 car" says I
He apologised for not recognising what class of car he was working with and to be fair that circuit did not get many F1 cars.

[Steve Emson]

I cannot really understand why you would want to win races or a championship by cheating. How could you tell your kids and family about what you achieved, if you did not really do it correctly. I believe amateur motor racing is about driving. The most satisfying races to win are when you drove well, and out thought or out maneuvered the other competitors. You know, the races when the guys you beat acknowledge you did it fair and square, and they actually enjoyed the duel.

Now there are several different types of people found in motor sport. There are the drivers, who don't care about the mechanical side of racing, they just concentrate on winning by driving the car as fast as it possibly can go, and then there are the technical clever guys who just love trying to build a car better, smarter or pushing the boundaries of the class they are in.They get their kick and satisfaction in car preparation more so than driving.

Then there are the f$%&#*# bastards that deliberately cheat and break the rules. I am not meaning the clever people who interpret the rules for their advantage, but the losers I have no time for. Looking you kids in the eye and telling them how you won this or whatever, give me a break.

Racing is full of delusional people who think you need to cheat to win. They also think if they get beaten the other guy MUST be cheating, because they are better than Aryton Senna.

The sport attracts people with a few spare bob to spend. Truly quick drivers sometimes do not have the funds or opportunity to shine and stay in the sport. You know I have always thought, that somewhere in this world is a very young guy or girl, with all the physical attributes to be the fastest of the fastest. Some one that could be the greatest driver the world has ever seen. They will never get the chance.

I too get the feeling there are people who think they have achieved something great, by not getting caught cheating. They have in my opinion achieved absolutely nothing!

Having been around racing since I was born, I have heard many stories about this subject (cheating). Some people you have to admire their intellect in being able to think up some of the stuff they did. Was it more cunning that intellect?, possibly. I can tell you I do not hold some of the drivers and car owners that I know won by cheating in much regard at all. In fact some of them are low forms of life. If you are faster than all other drivers in the SAME car, or are very quick in the rain, then............you get my respect.

On a brighter note, we do have some very talented drivers and engineers who deserve all accolades. Most races and championships have been won by great people!!

[jimdigris]

someone mentioned the expanding bag in the fuel tank trick, Ol Harry Firth did something similar but it wasnt as high tech, it was a basketball, they inflated it just before scrutineering, in those days they just put a sticker on items like tanks to say it had been checked for capacity, after the race they just looked to see the tank was the same and the sticker was in place. As soon as the car left scrutineering they deflated the baskeball and removed it. Another trick ol Harry did was he read the rules for one category and saw that there was a limit on the max diameter of the fuel line from the tank to the engine bay but no restriction over the length, so he coiled the line to gain 1 gallon! the first I consider cheating, the second I consider clever, but not really cheating

[jimdigris]

someone mentioned the expanding bag in the fuel tank trick, Ol Harry Firth did something similar but it wasnt as high tech, it was a basketball, they inflated it just before scrutineering, in those days they just put a sticker on items like tanks to say it had been checked for capacity, after the race they just looked to see the tank was the same and the sticker was in place. As soon as the car left scrutineering they deflated the baskeball and removed it. Another trick ol Harry did was he read the rules for one category and saw that there was a limit on the max diameter of the fuel line from the tank to the engine bay but no restriction over the length, so he coiled the line to gain 1 gallon! the first I consider cheating, the second I consider clever, but not really cheating

[928]

the bladder in the fuel tank was used at lemans years ago (and may still be) as the french have a strictly enforced fuel tank capacity. the inflatable bladder is sealed after the tank volume is corrected.
chilling fuel to increase the volume was also used in F1 good for another gallon (4.55l for the metricated) in a 38gallon tank.

[Frosty5]

the bladder in the fuel tank was used at lemans years ago (and may still be) as the french have a strictly enforced fuel tank capacity. the inflatable bladder is sealed after the tank volume is corrected.
chilling fuel to increase the volume was also used in F1 good for another gallon (4.55l for the metricated) in a 38gallon tank.

Les Small tried chilling the fuel in the Roadways Commodore (Percy/Grice) at Pukekohe once. However the ambient temperature was greater than fuel was able to be consumed and as a result the tank split halfway down the back straight leaving 120+ litres on the track. The phrase "if you cant beat them by fairs means try foul" doesn't always work.

[CUSTAXIE50]

I see that they are looking at f5000 this year,making an effort to ensure all cars in the series from here and overseas comply with both the letter and spirit of the regulations,correct engines,aerodynamics,even correct period liveries.

[Oldfart]

I see that they are looking at f5000 this year,making an effort to ensure all cars in the series from here and overseas comply with both the letter and spirit of the regulations,correct engines,aerodynamics,even correct period liveries.

I understand that a few people running carbon body pieces and wings might be a bit upset, although the rumour is that internal engine titanium bits have a moratorium. As they were raced in period...Yeah right.

[George Sheweiry]

I cannot really understand why you would want to win races or a championship by cheating. How could you tell your kids and family about what you achieved, if you did not really do it correctly. I believe amateur motor racing is about driving. The most satisfying races to win are when you drove well, and out thought or out maneuvered the other competitors. You know, the races when the guys you beat acknowledge you did it fair and square, and they actually enjoyed the duel.

Now there are several different types of people found in motor sport. There are the drivers, who don't care about the mechanical side of racing, they just concentrate on winning by driving the car as fast as it possibly can go, and then there are the technical clever guys who just love trying to build a car better, smarter or pushing the boundaries of the class they are in.They get their kick and satisfaction in car preparation more so than driving.

Then there are the f$%&#*# bastards that deliberately cheat and break the rules. I am not meaning the clever people who interpret the rules for their advantage, but the losers I have no time for. Looking you kids in the eye and telling them how you won this or whatever, give me a break.

Racing is full of delusional people who think you need to cheat to win. They also think if they get beaten the other guy MUST be cheating, because they are better than Aryton Senna.

The sport attracts people with a few spare bob to spend. Truly quick drivers sometimes do not have the funds or opportunity to shine and stay in the sport. You know I have always thought, that somewhere in this world is a very young guy or girl, with all the physical attributes to be the fastest of the fastest. Some one that could be the greatest driver the world has ever seen. They will never get the chance.

I too get the feeling there are people who think they have achieved something great, by not getting caught cheating. They have in my opinion achieved absolutely nothing!

Having been around racing since I was born, I have heard many stories about this subject (cheating). Some people you have to admire their intellect in being able to think up some of the stuff they did. Was it more cunning that intellect?, possibly. I can tell you I do not hold some of the drivers and car owners that I know won by cheating in much regard at all. In fact some of them are low forms of life. If you are faster than all other drivers in the SAME car, or are very quick in the rain, then............you get my respect.

On a brighter note, we do have some very talented drivers and engineers who deserve all accolades. Most races and championships have been won by great people!!

Well Steve I couldn't have summed it up any better, you hit the nail on the head there mate. The only thing I could add to that is the satisfaction you get when someone decides that you just cant go that fast so you must be cheating so they fully check your car out and well hello it is perfectly legal!!

[Ellis]

In 1967 at Longford our Humble old Humpy engine was being spoken about unkindly.
The head was pulled at the end of the 2nd day and lo and behold we were running an
old spare flat top piston engine...not even our good hitop engine .....Longford was very
hard on engines and we didnt risk our good one.....makes your day when its proven
beyond doubt to the naysayers you are legal.

[Rod Grimwood]

I understand that a few people running carbon body pieces and wings might be a bit upset, although the rumour is that internal engine titanium bits have a moratorium. As they were raced in period...Yeah right.

Yep Titanium bits are not new, been around for awhile. When did they put a man on the moon, not yesterday.

Not all used them back then but they were available and used by some.
Besides if they help survival of engines so be it.

Carbon is different and only glass should be used as it was then.

[Steve Emson]

Well Steve I couldn't have summed it up any better, you hit the nail on the head there mate. The only thing I could add to that is the satisfaction you get when someone decides that you just cant go that fast so you must be cheating so they fully check your car out and well hello it is perfectly legal!!

Hi George, Yes I know what you mean.

The funnest example was with a Falcon XY GTHO in historic racing in Queensland. It was a big meeting and the guns were up from interstate for it. It rained for qualifying, and the first days racing. I was fortunate to win these races by a big margin. Afterwards all the officials arrived at my pit to inform me there was a protest by an interstate competitor against my car for using the hand cut slicks in the rain. My car was still sitting there after coming off the track. I said what, those tyres on there?? They said yes, you cannot use hand cut slicks, it is against the rules. I said have a good look at those tyres guys, they are just everyday radial tyres I bought from the local Bob Jane T mart!

[Grant Sprague]

Steve that's called the tall poppy syndrome , they got their bums kicked because you had yr s...t together & they were the first of the losers

[928]

Oh how true. first losers have not heard that for a while

[thunder427]

....Sandown, mid 80's Lucio Cesario, RT4 Ralt ,lapping a second a lap quicker than anybody else, Wins!! ,CAMS (Completely Against Motor Sport) impounds the car and in complete view of all other competitors and public,strips the top of the engine (think open air and dust) Mr C is not happy,well it measures up to the exact dimensions....."So ,how come you can be a second a lap faster"????...not that they were ever told..Lucio never braked going over the top of the Sandown cnr hill....Big Balls....unfortunately there was no round of applause for a great drive..Just...you have to be cheating...any way I unfortunately lately I have been suffering a bad tick, sorta goes 'Fuck the officials' (King's for a Day ) and thier Bullshit, we just want to 'Race cars' and if you think I am wrong how about when we were at Wannaroo/WA and the Scrut say to me (Jane/A9X Torana)... Headlights!!...OK Dip-em....We had an early column, no dip switch..."What time does the race finish???, was my come back....opps ,wrong answer....."You will be disqualified unless those lights dip"......shit!! we had driven for 2 F'in days to get to Perth......went back to the pit bay, told Pat (and ducked !!)...Fucking WHAT !!...any way the bit you will love all you that say you don't 'Cheat'.........Pat brings back the Scrut!...I've by this time got tools and shit every where, Pat bundles me outa the road...."Did you hook up the loom"??...'Roger,Done"....so this clip board carrier stands at the front, calls Lights...Yep!!..Dip-em...OK your on the grid,you see we can all get along with a little simply co-operation, no need for 'smart' remarks..glarring at me.......I'm Mystified!!,"How did you do that Pat" ?/?? ...well when he said 'Lights',I switched the lights on and when he said, "Dip-em' I switched the lights 'on and off'...certainly fooled him !!!............MJ

[Dave B]

Being an ex speedway scrutineer I've seen some VERY creative interpretation of rules and some downright cheating. The downright cheating and the officialdom's attitude (its alright, they have been here for years and can pretty much do wat they want) is the reason I walked away from it thus costing the sport a dedicated volunteer. Thing is, some of the cheats had the talent not to need to cheat but that win at all costs and win every race attitude drove them to cheating.