Roll cages

[Kiwiboss]

Well, I have just had a look at a car a gentleman has been building up over about 6 years and he is intending running it in HMC and Production Muscle Cars or what its called. It has seats and upholstery all fitted around the cage. He has recieved a letter back from powers to be. I will not mention too much at this stage, but very interesting read. One part tells him that the pipe that the cage was made out of (built 6 years ago by engineer and beautiful welds etc) has not been in production for 6 years and he can not use it. So does this mean that all our older cars with pipe that is no longer in production are not allowed.
It is an interesting read, with other " debateable faults" pointed out. He is not a young fella and has raced years ago and fair enough he has not filled some forms out properly (his best 3 years at secondary school were 3rd form) and this will be easy fix with a little help.
He said all he wants to do is a couple of meetings a year and can not afford to do much more at this stage. Oh and the car is looking very nice and is a different shape to most out there and is going to be 'tribute car' in presentation.

Rod, if he didn't file the paperwork for Rollcage/logbook application at the time of the rollcage been built then HE is at fault and can blame NO one!!!(that's if this is the case?)

Dale M

[Milan Fistonic]

Just to lighten up this very serious thread.

I don't know who this guy is but but he sure could do with a roll cage of any type.

Things were certainly different in those days.

[John McKechnie]

Milan- thats a very interesting pic, what details do you have on this?
The wheels, the body work, the breather on the bonnet

[Racer Rog]

He's dead, died while inhaling cork, whilst using his head as a roll bar, that ia after the spokes in the wheels broke. brave man!
Rog

Just to lighten up this very serious thread.

I don't know who this guy is but but he sure could do with a roll cage of any type.


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Things were certainly different in those days.

[Milan Fistonic]

Milan- thats a very interesting pic, what details do you have on this?

I know nothing about the car or driver.

Perhaps David could shed some light on who he is.

[crunch]

If all older cars were forced into replacing the main hoop, to the current 44mm, then there'd be a mass mutiny.

And besides that, it would be plain stupidity, which is why it has never even been discussed

[nzeder]

I see in the current rules that if a car has an existing rollbar/half cage then it can't be altered into a full cage as the change to full is treated as a new application/homologation. So if the half cage has the older regulation main hoop size it all has to come out is that correct?

[ERC]

Rod, if he didn't file the paperwork for Rollcage/logbook application at the time of the rollcage been built then HE is at fault and can blame NO one!!!(that's if this is the case?)

Dale M

Sadly that is the case Dale. However, it doesn't alter the fact that a cage built to the regs at the time and maybe pre paint pics sighted by MSNZ, should not be failed JUST because a piece of paper wasn't filed in time. That is the bureaucratic stance rather than the practicality stance, hence the discussion.

Those who build cages for a living or even modify cars for a living are more up to date with the requirements than those of us who hand over their cars to experts for the work to be done. Cage builders may well NOW realise that they should submit the paperwork as soon as the cage is complete, but long term builds can slip through the cracks all too easily.

Off topic, but trying to get a road car through the LVVTA certification AFTER the extensive work has been done is far more fraught with problems than applying in advance and gaining prior approval. None of the people who were involved with my car were aware of the LVVTA bible - "The Hobby Car Manual" when they did the work. It is only when you get to the certification stage that you find out what SHOULD have been done years ago and trying to conform is then a slow, very costly process.

The point is that LVVTA, having given approval to proceed, won't back out of their decisions if/when the rules change and therein lies the fundamental difference between them and MSNZ. LVVTA rules have changed more often than MSNZ rules, so just as with cages, you can get two apparently similar cars side by side with major differences, dependent on when they were certified.

[John McKechnie]

Its a tough analogy , but there is a proverb here to cover lack of speed in finishing a project -if you snooze, you lose.

[ERC]

Its also tough when you put family care and family health care costs before projects - as you should of course, but the delays and consequent problems escalate...

[John McKechnie]

Its always tough when we realize we arent Methuselah , and there is only a finite life time to get these projects done in.

[crunch]

I see in the current rules that if a car has an existing rollbar/half cage then it can't be altered into a full cage as the change to full is treated as a new application/homologation. So if the half cage has the older regulation main hoop size it all has to come out is that correct?

No. As long as your half cage was homologated before the infamous cut-off date, you are fine. If you do add to it or change, it is treated as a new cage and will have to conform to the new specs.

[nzeder]

No. As long as your half cage was homologated before the infamous cut-off date, you are fine. If you do add to it or change, it is treated as a new cage and will have to conform to the new specs.

That is what I thought - which is why I now have 2 cars one with a 1/2 cage with the old sizing and one with a full cage with the new sizing both homologated. I did not want to cut out my 1/2 cage to go to a full cage ie add to it or change it and I knew of another car with a full cage that was for sale.....however it too had the full cage build before the change over without going through the homologation process. In this case the cars owner at the time insisted the large hoop size be included as he might take the car to Australia who already had the large main hoop size. But the car had been painted along with the cage - so I had to strip the paint from the cage so I could get the photos done for the homologation process - the cage builder lost the unpainted photos when his computer crashed a few years back - but had all the other paper work ready for me - I would not have purchased the car if the main hoop was the old size. I was lucky in this case - unlike others.

[ERC]

Don't you find it a bit odd that you have to remove the paint and take a photograph, then someone can assses the quality of the weld and cage build from a pic, yet a local cage builder/scrutineer/engineer is not considered capable of making that judgement, by examining the car/cage?

We rely on scrutineer's to audit all cars before competing, but we can't trust them to pass judgement on a piece of OPTIONAL safety equipment?

[Rod Grimwood]

[quote="Kiwiboss"]Rod, if he didn't file the paperwork for Rollcage/logbook application at the time of the rollcage been built then HE is at fault and can blame NO one!!!(that's if this is the case?)

Dale M[/QUOTE

Point taken Dale.
But most of these guys who are weekend car boys and don't do it for a living and have no law degree to not know this. I think most people believe that when they finish the car they will finish the paper Work ( bit like going to the toilet, you don't wipe up half way through, but this stuff doesn't wipe off) This will be another nice car that won't go anywhere because as he said, can't get a warrant until he has MSNZ paper work. This is another thing that needs addressing, with LVVTA.
Any way he is still positive and hopes to sort it out with MSNZ.
There is more to the letter as well but later for that if need be.

PS just read other post's, John fella, not everyone has the time or backing to build a car in a month, some work then do abit, more work buy some bits, more work do some more, get crook, come right and work some more and get back into their toy and buy more bits, etc etc. Finally Mum is happy that he has finally finished making all that noise under the house and she thinks its all finished because it has this nice paint on it. Poor mum, she finds her elder boy all upset after reading a letter. They deserve Mothers day, this year she may get a set of new wheels, (if car can have paper work)
Theres more to it than 'just build, do paper work, turn up and run)

[nzeder]

Ray your point is valid, and I did have the option of getting someone from WGTN up to Auckland (at my cost or shared cost if others were doing the same) to inspect the cage with the paint on. However in my case I don't have a lot of spare $$ for such expense and with 3 young kids and single income I try to spend my hobby $$ carefully. I do however have a retired father who has time on his hands, so it was take the paint off option that was chosen, Dad did most/all of the stripping and then painting once the homologation process was complete.

[John McKechnie]

Rod- my point was only that roll cage, paperwork and homologation are THE most important part.
NEVER be allowed as a race car without that magic sticker.
It was pointed out to me by everybody at the beginning, DONT let it run on, get that part finished and out of the way first-forget engines, gearbox, brakes etc.
I am glad I sought advice at the beginning, listened and followed that advice.
That more than anything else let me meet my deadline.

[car mad]

i have a car sitting in a shed for the last year or so .My problem is I can buy an FIA approved bolt in chrome moly half cage but do I bother ?I can drive my car on the road with the half cage without extra paper work but try and use it at our local track ivd been led to believe it wont happen Im not interested in full on racing just a few bent sprints and maybe flying laps etc .......What to do ................

[Rod Grimwood]

Rod- my point was only that roll cage, paperwork and homologation are THE most important part.
NEVER be allowed as a race car without that magic sticker.
It was pointed out to me by everybody at the beginning, DONT let it run on, get that part finished and out of the way first-forget engines, gearbox, brakes etc.
I am glad I sought advice at the beginning, listened and followed that advice.
That more than anything else let me meet my deadline.

Fair enough John, agree with everything you say, but this fella did not know about this, and has plodded along by himself with the car over a few years, not really wanting to annoy people or talking to people who would have directed him in right direction. He bought the rolling shell just after it had the cage fitted (to regs at that time) as he had some parts and wanted to build a tribute/race car out of them. (same colour as your Falcon but has 4 doors)
He will hopefully get there after he has tidied up the paper work (which he will get assistance with) and sense pervails.

PS Question for you fabricators; Does anyone have problem with pipes showing fine/very fine surface rust after they have handled it and welded it. Believe this is common.
When finished is it alright to clean it off, treat it, undercoat it and then paint it. (it hasn't sat for long, like 3-4 days and cleaned of like new)

[ERC]

A half cage or no cage should be OK for bent sprints and even some racing. I have run the Marcos for the last 22 years with either no cage; a half rear cage; or a half rear cage with one bolt in diagonal from the top of the hoop to the side of the spaceframe chassis on the passenger side of the transmission tunnel.

If I were to ever return the car to the road again, unbolting the front bar is easy. However, as it was restored in 1993, no provision was ever made for lap and diagonal belts, with tubed, plated, threaded belt attachment points just behind my shoulders. The sad thing is that having done that, the car can't get an authority card again for road use, unless it is used at least twice per year in competition, so you have to have a logbook, even if all you are doing is a couple of bent sprints, or, you try and refit lap and diagonal belts. (One day, I will publish a picture of the legal mounting for the original belt mechanism...)

Whilst open two seaters such as Frasers, Cobra replicas, Lotus Sevens, etc can get an exemption card for full harness belts without an MSNZ authority card, a car with a lightweight GT fibreglass body attached to a spaceframe chassis, with no metal above neck-line, can't - because it has a roof...