Repowered Classics

[John McKechnie]

Ray,
I would like to take issue with this.We so called HMC monster cars watch our mirrors as we dont want accidents with our fellow cars, and we are aware of the little ones nimbleness and ability to appear from nowhere. None us us got close to each other, we are not even racing.
Also, most obvious, is that there is a large compliment of under 3 litre cars, so not many have your fear.
You are safer on the track, than travelling in your light car on the motorway and a huge truck zooms past sucking you into its draught.

[RogerH]

Ray,
I would like to take issue with this.The accidents that happened were caused by smaller cars going for gaps. We so called HMC monster cars watch our mirrors as we dont want accidents with our fellow cars, and we are aware of the little ones nimbleness and ability to appear from nowhere. None us us got close to each other, we are not even racing.
Also, most obvious, is that there is a large compliment of under 3 litre cars, so not many have your fear.
You are safer on the track, than travelling in your light car on the motorway and a huge truck zooms past sucking you into its draught.

I saw a YouTube video the other day of one of the HMC races and it appears as though the Camaro drove the Porsche off the track (it happens about 30 sec into the clip) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_OaOg5SCes

[ERC]

I am not aware of the accidents John as I wasn't there, so I can't really comment, however, it raises the issue as to why there were any accidents at all, given that it was all supposed to be fun and you weren't even racing for chocolate fish? Were the guilty drivers held to account and brought into line? So far HMC is only fielding 14 or 15 cars but when you get up to 25 (which I hope you do) the chances of a driver not being up to the present standards increases.

Dale has stated several times that he is not bothered if the class is small, but pure, but if I put on my promoter's hat, each grid costs the promoter about $2,000, so the class has to grow to be financial viable.

I have always maintained that although we'd like to think our level is all about the cars, the truth is that driver behaviour is equally important, maybe more so. I'd far rather compete alongside someone in a repowered car who is awake, aware and not going to do anything stupid than someone in a Schedule K car with pots of cash who seems oblivious to what our level of racing is all about.

We are probably tougher on driving standards than most and this year, any panel damage has to be reported and those guilty of poor driving will be dealt to accordingly. We have done it before and we will do it again.

I love to see the muscle cars out there but I am not sure that mixing them with under 3 litre cars is such a brilliant idea. Maybe a better mix would be the larger, faster over 3 litre sports/GT/saloon cars? Watching Angus doing a David and Goliath is not a justification for the mix.

Agree totally about being safer on the road, but in the 22 years I have owned my car, every single bit of damage on the car has been the result of someone else's mishap on the race track, three times, avoiding a spinning car (one on his roof) or when they have lost it or spun out of Pukekohe's hairpin and caused a nose to tail behind them.

Having had problems in the past with Mk2 & XJ6 Jaguars not seeing me, as my roof is only 43" from the floor, I can assure you that it is all too easy to slip under the mirrors of larger cars!

We are off the subject though...

[Howard Wood]

Ray,
I would like to take issue with this.The accidents that happened were caused by smaller cars going for gaps. We so called HMC monster cars watch our mirrors as we dont want accidents with our fellow cars, and we are aware of the little ones nimbleness and ability to appear from nowhere. None us us got close to each other, we are not even racing.

John, how about "happened when smaller cars went for gaps", the only post accident flag marshall's report I saw put the blame squarely on the larger car.

[RogerH]

Refer to post #100 for a video of a HMC small car / big car incident.

[Oldfart]

Refer to post #100 for a video of a HMC small car / big car incident.

On which thread Roger?

[RogerH]

On which thread Roger?

This thread Rhys - last post on page 5.

[John McKechnie]

Howard, all I was trying to do was to bring Ray to understand that the size and power difference did not mean that he was in danger from large cars, he was equally vulnerable to smaller cars. I did not single any incident specifically. I was not denigrating any driver also.
On the track I respect every car and driver . I am not arguing your point here. I was once a small car-Mini- driver and I know the risks sharing a corner with a large car. Ray himself pointed out that David and Goliath battles is not a justification for the mix.
Pointless trying to make a point sometimes.

[fullnoise68]

Let me clarify something: On the first day of the Festival there was an all in drivers meeting, then Dale held an extra one for HMC.
The driver of the white Porsche in the video you are referring to wasn`t even there, he only entered the second weekend. People who were there would have heard Dale repeatedly state `give the big cars room, most HMC cars are left hand drive so have a blind spot in the right rear'. Now watch the video where the Porsche with the in car camera is behind the Capri going up over the dogleg, and the camera Porsche has to brake suddenly, as the problem Porsche brake checks the Capri. Why brake there, like that? What you didn`t see are the problem Porsche' brake lights - that`s because there aren`t any! Who, in an `historic' race meeting would continue to dive bomb another car - which is clearly in front, his left front bumper hit my r/h door - into that corner up on the ripple strip, then coming out of the corner, again clearly in front, he tags me for a second time in the r/r guard spinning my Camaro and him ending up against the concrete. There was a hearing with the Clerk of the Course, there was no flag marshall report, and it was adjudged a `racing incident'. As with my comments on one of the other threads, if you are all on the same page, the racing can be good fun. That`s what happened, that`s my version, my Camaro was damaged from the `A' pillar back to the rear bumper, the damage to the white Porsche was left frontal, meaning at no stage was he past me at all. There`s another thread for Motorsport Fiction, I`ll stick to the facts, end of story.

[RogerH]

Are we watching the same video clip? I've looked at it several times and it appears the Porsche held the inside line and the Camaro abruptly changed its line and came across from left to right and then hit the Porsche.

[fullnoise68]

You don`t think the Camaro should of gone from left to right, given that the corner actually goes that direction? You don`t think that the white Porsche didn`t avoid contact by simply braking? And you don`t think that by tagging the Camaro in the r/r guard, the Porsche was again in the wrong? Brake = Stop. Accelerator = Faster. Muscle Car = Front Engined US/Aust Origin.
I`m over it, I`ve moved on, I`ll let those that want to dwell or dither over it do just that.

[ERC]

Sorry guys, but this spat doesn't belong in this thread, even though it raises several valid issues.

[bigbanger]

..... The OSCA V8's were getting around 400hp, thats the good ones, back in the 70's and 80's, with the exception of the Wills RX8, that was getting closer to 500hp, many of the middle of the pack cars in HMC would seem to be up around 500hp with those with a few more dollars and knowledge probably over 600hp. So its not only classes of the cars but also the performance increases that should be considered.

400 hp at the flywheel for 'good' V8 engines in OSCA in the 1970's/1980s?

Now more lies have probably been told by competitors about horsepower than anything else, but speaking of SI OSCA, 400 hp may have been true of some engines in the early/mid 1970's, Ian Munt told me he had 400 hp from the 302 Ford Windsor as originally fitted to the Capri, but by the 1980's, most of the top runners running Chev and Ford engines 5.7 to 6.0 litres were north of 500 hp and certainly Ian claimed 540 bhp from his Murray Baker built fuel injected Chev 366 that he ran from around 1983. Inky Tulloch, John Osborne, Rod McElrea, Avon Hyde and many others were well north of 500 hp, as was Rob Kennards Ford.

The 'good' Chev engines by the likes of Murray Baker, Denis Wise and Rob Kennard often had extensively worked angle plug (292 'Turbo') iron or Brodix alloy heads and induction ranged from fuel injection through the popular 4 x 48 IDA Webers to the single 4 bbl Holley. And it was these engines in what today we see as comparitively basic chassis/suspension setups that managed to break lap records set by Leo Leonard in the PDL Mustang II, so that had to be some decent horsepower there.

But it's certainly true that it's easier to get more horsepower per cu in today, even using the same or similar heads as back in the day. Gas flowing, computer analysis and just 'development' have helped here.

[ERC]

Are we watching the same video clip? I've looked at it several times and it appears the Porsche held the inside line and the Camaro abruptly changed its line and came across from left to right and then hit the Porsche.

Sorry, couldn't resist! That is what I see. Three wide into the corner before the incident surely means three wide coming out and not moving off line?

[Allan]

If we return to the origional thread..........
The way I see it there are as many ideas on what is and what isn't a "classic" as there are owners and cars. Whilst I appreciate the time, effort and workmanship that has gone into your MG ERC I personally don't see it as a classic as it exists. I would consider it to be a hotrod. Had that particular MG been raced 25 or more years ago as it now exists then it would be a whole different story. But be proud of what you have done.
The next point I would make is on replicas of previously raced vehicles such as the Custaxie. In my mind there was only one Custaxie and it no longer exists and so the Custaxie II is not a reincarnation of the origional. It is a completely "new" car built using today's materials and technology. I have no opinion as to where it fits into the ERC or HRC fields. What would happen if someone decided to build another Custaxie? Or for that matter half a dozen people decided to make a replica of the Carney Escort Twin Cam for example?
I do not have issues with the conversion of an 1100 Escort into a Twin Cam provided the conversion is done correctly warts and all.
Some time in the late 70s I attended a meeting at the Auckland Car Club called by a group who were trying to get a series running for pre 1960 cars. There was no resolution at the end because there was so many differing views as to what should or shouldn't be allowed and as and added problem there were already a couple of cars being built and the owner/builders wanted the rules written to suit their cars.
I am NOT taking a dig at anyone in particular here nor everyone in general so please no one get offended by what I have written. I would not envy the job of setting the rules for any class. Let us remember that things should be done within the "spirit of the regulations".
Just as aside I am a Targa competitor and car preparer. There have been some changes to the classic class that we run in. What is very interesting is that one of the changes bought about three different interpretations to one of the changes.
Interesting.
Allan

[Dave Silcock]

I have posted on this subject before, but why does a car have to have been in exsistence before to be able to race? If it is built to the design and technology of the period then is it not for example a Twin cam or BDA Escort? or a Mini Cooper? What is wrong with having 6 or 8 of these running round our tracks? As long as no one is claiming it's something it's not. I am reminded of a elitist who came into my shop, looked at My Mk2 Jaguar and said" is that a replica of your old car" and I replied " no I have just built it" and he said " I don't think we should have these sort of cars racing with real ones" Hello where are we going to get enough cars to make a field in this country? How ever he has got his wish, because of other reasons it won't be racing anyway. And on the subject of people paying over the top for cars with history, it does my heart good to hear of the problems faced those who bought the disgraced Jimmy Saville cars LOL!!

[ERC]

The way I see it there are as many ideas on what is and what isn't a "classic" as there are owners and cars. Whilst I appreciate the time, effort and workmanship that has gone into your MG ERC I personally don't see it as a classic as it exists. I would consider it to be a hotrod. Had that particular MG been raced 25 or more years ago as it now exists then it would be a whole different story.

And therein lies the major issue. How do you then define a Hot Rod? A Zephyr raced in period with a Corvette engine was just accepted as "a car". Put a 1970 Corvette engine into a Mk4 Zodiac today and it magically becomes a Hot Rod.

Why do we need to to have specific definitions anyway? Everything is down to Personal Perception. As several regular posters on here know, I carried out a very quick quiz on perception and the results enlightening.

Some time in the late 70s I attended a meeting at the Auckland Car Club called by a group who were trying to get a series running for pre 1960 cars. There was no resolution at the end because there was so many differing views as to what should or shouldn't be allowed and as and added problem there were already a couple of cars being built and the owner/builders wanted the rules written to suit their cars.

No surprises there then! Nothing changes... Most series develop to suit a perceived need and I am the first to admit that long before I even dreamed of building my own car, I was aware that Jo Hill's Triumph Herald V8 was outlawed from mainstream classic competition, as many deemed it a Hot Rod, but what I saw was a well constructed car, driven with verve and a real crowd pleaser on Targa.

Watching the on track performance of many drivers over many years, the ones who really get the crowds on their feet are the pre-cursors to the drifters. The days when there was more power than grip. That is why Muscle cars are so popular today. Smoking tyres and bags of oversteeer appeal to the crowds far more than beautifully driven Formula Fords. Just put Ken Smith in Formula Ford or Skidmark Parsons in his TR8 or Mal Clark's Rover on old rally tyres and ask the average (and I do mean average) spectator who rates the higher in spectator appeal?

However, anyone wanting to recreate the SPIRIT of a bygone age, by putting in a larger engine is now deemed to be a hot rodder, even though the car may have been built out of period parts.

I am NOT taking a dig at anyone in particular here nor everyone in general so please no one get offended by what I have written. I would not envy the job of setting the rules for any class. Let us remember that things should be done within the "spirit of the regulations".

Spot on. I don't take offence, but the spirit of the regulations is indeed the key point. It should also be the spirit of the age and in that respect, many people change tack 180 degrees.

Dave's post above is in similar vein. Perception/viability/sustainability/practicality etc. It is not a one dimensional issue, but some see it that way. "It wasn't done in period". Why not? Because no-one thought of it. That is the only reason and for some of us, that is not sufficient to outlaw.

Meanwhile, the critics will fit electronic ignition, use modern oils/filters/tyres/shocks/disc pads, remanufactured heads, cams and cranks (even blocks!) to a better quality etc., "to iron out issues with the originals" not to mention data loggers, shift lights etc., to their own "classics".

[Allan]

To answer Dave's point on The Escort Twin Cam/Mini Cooper etc there is no problem with these being built from a lesser body provided the car is true to the period. The point I was trying to make is that there is/was only one Custaxie/Carney Escort/Spears Escort etc and in my opinion unless one has the majority of the origional car with which to build another then that car is lost forever. The point here is that the likes of the Coppins Zephyr Corvette were such iconic cars that if they could be found and rebuilt to origional specs should be allowed in. To build one from scratch today is to build a hotrod.
Allan

[ERC]

After 10.75 years, at long last I have a legal road registered car with period V8 power!

[Alan Hyndman]

Fantastic news Ray! Any photos of it in action on the roads getting it's first speeding ticket? :-p