Roll cages

[Carlo]

Just as an aside re the 2nd fire extingusher mounting strap. Yesterday I was stewarding a gravel hillclimb and as a result of a car hitting a bank and spining down the roadway the fire extingusher which I understand had been secured by the old single strap method plus a ziptie, detached its self and flew out of the drivers window which was open less than 150mm and then landed on the roadway some distance from the car. That extingusher had to get past the drivers head.

Think about it and realise that some of the changes to regulations regarding safety actually are for your own well being. Maybe in the past some of us have just been downright lucky.

[928]

Easily solved, do not have extinguishers in cars. Either a properly fitted,remote activated system, or no missiles in the car.e

[ERC]

Think about it and realise that some of the changes to regulations regarding safety actually are for your own well being. Maybe in the past some of us have just been downright lucky.

A fair comment, but how far do you go? It is called progress, but there is nothing worse than seeing a 1950's Connaught with an exterior roll cage!

I have long questioned the point of carrying a tiny extinguisher in a circuit car given that if fire erupts, it is either

a) too fierce to be controlled by a 1kg extinguisher anyway

b) our first thought is going to be to get out as soon as as humanely possible

c) hopefully within reach of a fire marshal - though I have major concerns there, as I do not consider them sufficiently well equipped to deal either.

Equally, there is no such thing as 100% safe motorsport.

Given that we now have over 100 years of motorsport history, we reached the law of diminishing returns years ago. Any changes to safety from about 10 years ago will have had an overall negligible effect on car safety and sadly, as we saw at Teretonga, we still get an occasional fatality.

As regards the incident mentioned, if the extinguisher was secured by a cable tie, how on earth did the driver expect to remove it to activate it?

[Jac Mac]

[color="#0000FF"]Perhaps they shouldnt have batterys either...or more zip ties!!
[color="#FF0000"]Deleted URL to utube, not allowed to access[/color] oh well at least he parked it close to the fire marshall!....Uh oh, looks like we are not allowed to upload that... go to youtube & seach under 'car crash at teretonga' uploaded by 'brodie racing'..[/color]

[Bruce Sollitt]

Doesn't look like that battery had any bracket holding it in place at all.

[ERC]

Doesn't look like that battery had any bracket holding it in place at all.

I haven't seen the clip. It is no longer available, so I have no idea as to the details, but in NZ for the past few years, we have had each driver sign a declaration that their car conforms to the scrutineering requirements, which thankfully, means you no longer have to throw a sickie on a Friday whilst the scrutineering team tries to get 250 cars through. Instead, getting scrutineered after your third event (or is it after the second?) cuts down the initial workload by at least 50%, leaving scrutineers to prod and poke throughout the meeting.

If any driver appears at a meeting without the battery secured, then they are 100% responsible, but some cars have a retaining lip at the base of the battery - but as I said, I haven't seen the clip.

[Bruce Sollitt]

The clip is still there, you have to enter it in the search field as Jac Mac said.
I've lost count of the number of rally cars I've tossed off cliffs or planted in trees over the years and I've not had a battery break free of it's bracket yet. In the clip it certainly appears that the battery is simply sitting inside the plastic battery box with no other anchorage.
Then again, I've never had a fire extinguisher come loose either.
Carl's point is well made however I tend to agree with you Ray. There is an adequate and appropriate level of safety which I think we achieved many years ago. Changes made more recently serve only to provide discussion fodder for the sport's politicians and to fatten the wallets of equipment suppliers.

[crunch]

The BMW;s are former European Touring Car Championship Factory team cars, not all from the same team or year.

Hi Mark
I have had one of the Tech people in the office on Saturday to check this out.
As of then there are NO fully compliant International cars including BMW's that have not been able to be processed.

There was a recent case of a BMW imported into Christchurch without any paperwork and had never seen any competition, but the owner (Mike Lea?) wanted it certified, but this is in direct contravention to the regulations. However MSNZ and the Tech officer(s) in CHCH did a lot of extra work to eventually help the owner to go thru the steps to successfully gain a certification.

So I have no idea which BMW's you are talking about and the Tech Dept has no records of them.

If you have any more info, let me know.
Cheers

[markec]

Talk to Warren Good

[Russ Cunningham]

I come back to what I've stated previously. It's not for PC wankers to put a price on my head, it's up to me and the price is a buck!!!
If I want to race with a piece of exhaust tube above my head then that's my choice, not for some other superior, do gooding, bastard to do so.

Is MSNZ TAKING A VOLUNTARY STANCE ON FREEDOM OF CHOICE? I't wouldn't surprise me! A group of self interested do-gooders with little interest in the future of Motor Sport in NZ.

Boys! you've blown out competition costs for the true enthusiasts-----take a look at FF as an example....once we had qualifying for grid positons, now we have a maximum grid of eight cars. WELL DONE MSNZ!!!

If anarchy was a choice we'd shoot the lot of you!

ps. Hats off to Crunch for having the guts to be counted and responding to grips.

[crunch]

Hello Russ

The Formula Ford scanrio is a bit off topic, but it's demise is due to a number of factors, not all in the pervue of MSNZ.
In fact three years ago I was charged along with a small group to sort out the mess. This group made recommendations that werent accepted by the Exec of MSNZ AND the Formula Ford Association.

Perception of costs is a huge factor in Formula Ford at a Championship level. People thought you had to spend hundreds of thousands of $$ to win. Not true. It has been proven that you can compete at around $5K per meeting including all costs. But people choose not to believe it, they prefer to listen to the horror stories of 5 to 6 years ago.

Maybe another factor could be the use of what could be termed old technology in the Kent engine. However with minor changes over the last few years, these have been reliable and you should be able to do the season with one engine and use it the following season.

Formula Ford needs a kickstart, but the impedious for this to happen needs to come from the Formula Ford Association.
Send me your email address in a PM and I will send you the report we put together 3 years ago.

Yes; MSNZ has made some cock-ups, but they are not solely responsible for the state of Formula Ford.

[John McKechnie]

Crunch- thank you for all this information you are giving. I also hear info around the campfire, never heard of recommendations that were not accepted.

[crunch]

Back to Mark's enquiry regarding BMW's belonging to Warren Good being declined certification...the database shows Warren has three BMW's all with the appropriate current paperwork including an HTP. There are NO applications from Warren that are pending, void or have never been accepted.

So not sure where the problem is Mark, if there is one at all.

As for Jamie's enquiry, the SID 3 is a Schedule K car in it's original specification. So the roll protection as long as it is the same as period is not a problem.

[crunch]

If anarchy was a choice we'd shoot the lot of you!

.

...would need a big bullet for me.....howitzer? or maybe one of those WW1 railway guns??They were cool.

Seriously; I'm not gonna defend MSNZ as a whole because that would be seen as self-serving. But part of the MSNZ you wish to shoot is the H&C Commission who do work tirelessly for the competitors, within the framework of the Strategic Plan and the MSNZ Manual App.6 If the job they are doing isnt working for you or your motorsport, then please suggest changes that can be submitted as remits to conference. Now is the time to do it as car clubs have the remit forms in thier post boxes right now. Please submit your ideas, except maybe not a remit about shooting us...

[ERC]

Fair point Crunch, but without reawakening the debate on conference votes, I'd suggest that many of those able to vote would have no idea as to the issues that many of us face. Without a more licence holder based representation, the system is flawed anyway. To suggest changes via the clubs isn't that straightforward either, given that in many clubs, active racing members are a minority and the racers may only have one vote on a club commitee.

Russ Cunningham's post might be a little strong for me, but I'd suggest that his comments and perception would be echoed up and down the land, especially from those who would be nodding into a pint of Old Speckled Hen rather than supping a can of Lion Red.

I'll ask this two part question as it I believe it is relevant: "Does the current H & C commission have the right to overrule the Technical Department in classic matters" (I think we know the answer to that), and secondly, "Is it going to get better or worse under the proposed restructure?".

These are important points as word around the various camp fires is that the future is not looking too good and if we are going to get a lesser representation than we do now, it may indeed be to our benefit to align with the VCC.

[crunch]

Fair point Crunch, but without reawakening the debate on conference votes, I'd suggest that many of those able to vote would have no idea as to the issues that many of us face. Without a more licence holder based representation, the system is flawed anyway. To suggest changes via the clubs isn't that straightforward either, given that in many clubs, active racing members are a minority and the racers may only have one vote on a club commitee.

Russ Cunningham's post might be a little strong for me, but I'd suggest that his comments and perception would be echoed up and down the land, especially from those who would be nodding into a pint of Old Speckled Hen rather than supping a can of Lion Red.

I'll ask this two part question as it I believe it is relevant: "Does the current H & C commission have the right to overrule the Technical Department in classic matters" (I think we know the answer to that), and secondly, "Is it going to get better or worse under the proposed restructure?".

These are important points as word around the various camp fires is that the future is not looking too good and if we are going to get a lesser representation than we do now, it may indeed be to our benefit to align with the VCC.

At the moment Ray; all we have is the current system. That is what we have to use for this year's AGCM. Remits have power, whereas discussion in the workshop sessions tends to get lost. Having said that; if it is easier to submit your ideas for discussion in the workshop which could result in remits passed the following day in the general council, please email me on mailto:?subject=&body= with the subject Conference Discussion Point. I will ensure discussion happens, but we are time limited and remits to the general council get a better airing.

Answer to first point is that the Tech Dept can only over rule the H&C Commission on the grounds of safety. Nothing else.
Answer to second point...god, I hope so. You guys arent the only ones frustrated! There will still be an H&C Commission, otherwise I shall take Russ and his shotguns with me to see the President and rest of the review panel!

The future never looks good to a lot of people, to me it's looking really good as you and others have illustrated with regards to competitor numbers and the show I saw from the grandstands at the Hulme Festival. The whole Commission will be at the Legends of Speed meeting in a few weeks to see the same, and answer questions, share a beer....

I wouldnt consider any benefit at all with aligning with the VCC for motor racing purposes, but that is my personal belief based on some instances that have happened in the south island. I hasten to add that the Waitamata branch of the VCC does a perfect job of the Roycroft Trophy meeting...another great day out.

Now back to roll cages. My question is why am I struggling to fit through the bars into this year's Subaru Rally Car??? Does the new material spec have a shrinkage factor??

[crunch]

Who still drinks Lion Red and what is Speckled Hen?

[AMCO72]

Ray I'm sure has devoured gallons of 'Old Speckled Hen', and he will give us a good description of it, but here is mine.

A strong English BITTER bear. Probably as far removed from Lion Red as it is possible to get. Can be found in all GOOD supermarkets, but probably rejected by 'Leon Rouge' drinkers as being too expensive. Best drunk not too cold.

[Racer Rog]

As some of you guys here know, I have been lucky enough ( or unlucky, depending upon your point of view ) to able to sit with the rest of the H & C Commission along with Ross Armstrong, and sometimes posting on these forums can be a rod for your own back, so I give my full support to Crunch for sticking his head up over the turrent. The H & C Commission is a very hard working, and I believe the hardest working Commission in MSNZ, and one of the reasons for this is that it has to cover such a wide range of vehicles and issues in the fleet, and there would not be many days when the in box of all are not full of issues that we have to discuss and deal with, with out trying to piss anybody off, nor prevent them from racing which some have accused us of, the Commissions latest task is one of looking forward, or future proofing, and these subjects have been touched on within these forums, and one in which the talking stick will be banged on the table many times in the coming months, and as Crunch has said we need constructive feed back, not the whinnings that have appeared here at times, and then the same people wont front with their thoughts to the Commission, which has in turn, to give thought to all involved in our side of the sport, we all know that there has been a raft of problems within MSNZ, its not an easy fix, and personally I agree with some of it, but not all, and really we can only deal with what we are involved with at this point in time, as there is so much of it, so we need constructive feed back, be at H/D on the 23/24 March, we will all be there.
Russ, FF, go the way of the states upgrade the engine to HONDA, they are using the Honda Fit engine, standard, you can't do a damm thing to them, long term way cheaper than the KENT engine ( dear old girl ) but it does bring the class into the 20th centary, and HPD in the good ole US of A has developed the package, you can supply and work on your own engine, but it must remain standard no alterations at all, and they will supply the wiring harness drysump and inlet manifold and ECU. they have a restricture plate and the HP is the same as a top running Kent, no one else, agrees with me, but personally I see it as a way forward for us and the Aussies.
Rant over
Roger

[ERC]

Next time you go to Taupo, especially for a classic meeting, follow the MG guys to see where they eat/drink!... Old Speckled Hen is closely aligned to the MG Marque.

Just for the record AMCO, and as about as far as you can possibly get off the topic, I have never been a beer drinker (I prefer an occasional cider...) but having enjoyed a visit to the Speight's brewery, and had the health benefits of their product fully explained, I now down a bottle or two a week in summer - but with a generous slug of lime juice to avoid rickets.

I will be at the Legend's meeting and staying overnight Saturday, so will catch up there. If I can somehow or other get the (still unfinished) Magnette down there, it will also be in place for the Roycroft the following weekend. However, I have had to stand down as Commentator, as I'll still be awaiting the spinal operation and still not mobile or fit enough (or fit enough to finish the Magnette) - but I'll try and get down again for that great meeting too at some stage, even if only for a couple of hours. Great cars, great people, great spectacle.