Repowered Classics

[nzeder]

Interesting topic Ray, I have been for the last 8 years or so been a regular spectator/helper for a few racers in your series. I now have 2 x Datsun 260z 2 seaters as my first one has body mods out side of T&C rules and an opportunity came up to purchase another part finished Targa/race car 260z. This new project did have a repower that also did not fit T&C so I am in the process of correcting the drive train issues and finish the assembly.

What I find interesting is how even MSNZ own rules have changed. I recall the T&C rules stated that body parts could be substituted for alternative material if the original parts where NLA (no longer available). However now in manual 35 this has been removed and body must be of the material as supplied at manufacturing. So does this mean cars that once conformed to T&C with fibre glass guards as original steel items are unavailable then today that car is now illegal under T&C?

The way I see it/read the regs schedule k is there for standard production cars (that is 100% as they were made with no option/catalogue parts allow to be added) or for the, let me state that again, for "the" 100% period race car as it was as it should be. So using your escort example Ray, a schedule k escort 1300 sport will be as it left the factory no mods no exceptions or it must be "the" one and only "Hannu Mikkola" winning car. Anything else fits under T&C no exception. Or am I reading it wrong?

The current T&C rules are clear allow for period mods and the use of period parts for those that want to race a modify classic. I personally believe schedule CR needs room for saloons, for those that want to build a replica of "Hannu Mikkola" winning escort, or a retrospective special of a 1970 formula Ford chassis with a Toyota 3k engine or Mazda 10a rotary or a rover v8...someone could have build these in period or did, so why not an MG with a V8 using period chassis and engine how is that different to the single seater retrospective special? Or am I missing something there too?

For me I like the series Ray runs, different marques have good clean racing and a handicap grid can aid in any performance advantage a V8 MG has over a pinto power mk2 escort. I hope that one day I can finish my track 260z and be allowed to join such a grid/series. In the mean time I wait for room in a certain fabricators shed/hoist to get me car there to sort out my installation of a stock drive line

Regards
Mike Lucas

[ERC]

We look forward to seeing you Mike. People have already made representations on your behalf! Good post. My car is now off the hoist and home as I try to finish off a small mountain of jobs...

A good point about fibreglass panels. As soon as I can, I'll revert to getting fibreglass front wings done for mine, as the ones I have are now just too scarce to risk on road or track. Ditto boot and bonnet lid. I have advertised for a spare bonnet and so far have only been offered two - both from the other side of the world and not exactly cheap, even without the cost of packaging, shipping and insurance, which is also a major factor when we are located so far from Europe.

As you point out, we are pragmatic about such things for very sound reasons - scarcity of originals. Once again, easy for an MGB or a Mini, not so easy for many other makes.


Well spotted. It is indeed an MG Montegeo wheel because the steering column and switches and wiper motor and delay unit are also Montego, and the column includes hazard flashers and switch. The speedo and rev counter are in fact MGB, the rev counter has been converted for a V8 and the instruments are period Smiths - of course. I'll happily move to a woodrim wheel when finances allow - and I can find one that fits!

The dash follows the shape of the original but is completely home made, as the original Magnette didn't have a rev counter or oil temperature gauge - and I can't stand "pod" or bolt on additions, so the original dash shape was simply stretched to incorporate the tacho and oil pressure gauge. Mixing mahogany and burr walnut never worked for me so it is now all burr walnut, with a padded dash top which is much safer than highly reflective polished wood.

If you have studied ergonomics at all, you'll also know that both MGBs and Aston Martins have a fatal design flaw - with hands at a quarter to three, you can't see the essential instruments... When you are doing a project like this, it seems rather pointless replicating the mistakes of the past when it is is so much easier to make improvements that are sympathetic to the whole car, hence incorporating a fan overrride switch and fuel pump switches with warning lights and a warning light for a low fuel level.

All those of us who ran Minis in our youth, went out and bought a stage 1 or 2 cylinder head, bolted twin carbs or a Weber, a LCB exhaust, added an oil cooler, dumped the grotty seats and fitted Corbeau or something similar and fitted a set of Cosmics, Dunlop or even Minilite wheels and fitted a straight through exhaust and an alloy rocker cover. Most also added a rev counter, possibly with an after market dash. Keeping a Mini bog standard just wasn't done and we accept all those mods today as period.

Hot rod? Customised? Call it what you will, but there is nothing that couldn't have been done in period and in that respect, I maintain it is rather more period than many cars we see out there.

Good debate - still - and hopefuly more will join in.

[ERC]

Fair comment Graeme re roll over requirements and I tend to agree that is also a major factor. The current regulations are totally over the top and highly inconsistent and even Crunch is chasing this one.

I do believe that decent overalls are important though, as we are running older cars where a burst fuel line and fire is probably far more likely than a roll over. The response time at our tracks is likely to be well outside the 30 second window that a decent set of overalls will protect you. I'd also be happy if gloves were mandatory too, as fire is extremely nasty and like Stirling Moss, the thing that most of us genuinely fear.

If we counted all the race meetings held over the last 60 years, the number of drivers, laps and distance covered, we'd probably find that the accident and fatality rate was considerably less than on the public roads...

[Bruce Sollitt]

Yes Crunch, I ought not allow my frustrations to get the better of me. My apologies.
Also thankyou for finally providing some semblance of an answer to the original question.

Classics & historics are generally expensive, can be temperamental and are usually costly to run.
It is vital that the integrity of the competition be maintained in order that those who commit the investment, time and
effort are not disadvantaged.

I understand and sympathise though with Ray's, and Graeme's, points.

In rallying we generally all play to the same safety rules and any rally car in NZ is eligible for pretty much any event. Therefore, regardless of specification, the opportunities to use a rallycar are endless.
If in racing there are cars which would, through practicality, require the leniencies of Schedule AA in order to race anywhere, it would seem curious to deny those freedoms simply on the basis of authenticity.

[Russ Cunningham]

Russ, Will the car be ready for the Denny Hulme Festival?

Unlikely Woody, would love to be there but the revolutionary all plastic motor is still undergoing teething problems. Nothing major, just little clitches like pistons welding themselves to the bore and things like that. Really have appreciated your input regarding the distributor. Your suggestion of a 500ml coke bottle works really well and you were right----adding vodka did advance the dizzy! in fact its so far advanced that we might use it for a member of parliament.

[ERC]

Can anyone please tell me how Clark Poctor's Nissan powered Escort was allowed to run at the Hulme festival? Great to see the car, but a high degree of hypocrisy here?

With my own car, after numerous battles, (one major win!) it is getting near to being on the road thanks to the guys at LVVTA.

As I am out of action at the moment, plenty of time to think, but to repeat what has been said before, we have an under supported Schedule K for pure classic saloons. A class that everyone raves about, but when push comes to shove, very few actively support it. (Less than 10% of our current 115 cars have a K CoD.)

Why do HMC cars need a comprehensive set of regs? Why not just Schedule K?

We have a T & C set of rules that may be a little bit looser than Schedule K, but don't adequately reflect the requirements of the majority of active racers and in some areas are so close to K that it renders T & C effectiveness and desirability questionable.

There is no CR for repowered saloons.

Yet, if I were to post a survey of 25 saloons, old and new, but without any engine details being disclosed and asked any casual observer simply to categorise them as old/classic or modern, then there is no doubt at all in my mind that no repowered classic could possibly be thought of as modern.

Having ascertained that, and surveyed 25 'classics' with repowers dating from before the cars were originally built, to a repower from the period it was built, to modern engines, then where would Clark Proctor's Nissan powered Escort fit and where would a Magnette/Rover fit? One is welcomed into the classic fold by virtue of racing at the Hulme Festival, the other still sits in no mans land? I can totally destroy the purity of the Marcos by dumping the scarce, slow, heavy, Volvo six, still with even scarcer original Volvo manual 4 speed gearbox, and pop in a Rover V8, but I can't rescue a 1956 heap from the scrapyard and use the same engine. Sad lack of logic here somewhere.

[BWilliams]

It's a bit like my brothers Turbo 2litre Pinto Escort rallycar.It's not allowed to run in the classic class due to being a non factory produced engine,but it could have been built at the time, and uses period parts.Even if it ran the 2.3 factory turbo engine it wouldn't be allowed,due to Escorts never using that engine.But throw a Rover V8 or a rotary in there and its legal.

[Kiwiboss]

It's a bit like my brothers Turbo 2litre Pinto Escort rallycar.It's not allowed to run in the classic class due to being a non factory produced engine,but it could have been built at the time, and uses period parts.Even if it ran the 2.3 factory turbo engine it wouldn't be allowed,due to Escorts never using that engine.But throw a Rover V8 or a rotary in there and its legal.

Im on both you sides RE: Nissan powered Escort at the Hulme Festival, you need to put your concerns direct to the 4 Festival Directors. Dale M

[Howard Wood]

At the risk of sounding cynical, the Proctor Escort is allowed for much the same reasons as the Stewart/ Skope Porsche was allowed at Ruapuna.

The non negotiable stance of the HMC group clearly shows that competitors can and will build cars to proper, well thought out regulations.

Ray, I am of the view that if you tightened your regulations to at least T&C with a reasonable compliance lead in time, you might be pleasantly suprised at the response, both from your existing client base and potential new competitors.

[John McKechnie]

Howard- just reading a Motorman from the 60s that says- Howard Wood is a better insurance risk than his brother...........
Does this bring back memories?

[Howard Wood]

Possibly the '70s John but who is counting. To be fair, my brother Donald started his FFord career with a bang, backwards through the "catch" fencing at Levin while attempting to overtake the field around the outside. My personal favourite early quote was Robin Curtis in MotorAction who described our driving as "driving (the cars) as if they had stolen them".

[Kiwiboss]

The non negotiable stance of the HMC group clearly shows that competitors can and will build cars to proper, well thought out regulations.

If even half the proposed vehicles that are plan'd for HMC turn up i'd be happy, it is clearly proving that people/person want to build to a definded set of regulations is the way to go, especially when they see the rules are for everyone, no exceptions!! the non points/championship status clearly sorts out the type of person heading in our(HMC) direction, this would be my No1 advice to anyone proposing a class, 2nd is to make sure its guide lines are along a proper historic and classic racing as used by many overseas!!

Dale M

[ERC]

With 17 years under my stewardship and continued strong support (two more registered this week) our rules and attitude have stood the test of time. Longevity counts for a lot in my book and I doubt you'd find a happier bunch or racers anywhere.

You have to be careful that creating tough rules may have a detrimental effect, if it seeks to eliminate rather more than it encourages or if parts supplies are rare and rules demand originality. One of our reasons for success is the wide variety of make, model and year. At the risk of sounding like a long playing record, there is no level playing field when engine capacities vary so much. Muscle cars by definition have large engines. Ours are from 1300cc to 7000cc...

Sure, we'd like to be closer to T & C, (and we have offered our suggestions) but whilst there are either unworkable or unecessary rules or hiccups within their rules (and only those who know what they are, can really understand), we will happily carry on and welcome and encourage participation.

We totally support HMC's philosophy, but whilst we run as a points series, no-one knows the points awarded until the awards dinner as they are never published, but a season of six or seven rounds means that there are enough to make participation or building a car worthwhile.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

[markec]

Even under Dale's watchfull eye, it appears that those cars running in HMC are devaloping much more horsepower than they did period. Technology has moved on, methods of gaining hp have changed more than subtley, so where does the line stop. The OSCA V8's were getting around 400hp, thats the good ones, back in the 70's and 80's, with the exception of the Wills RX8, that was getting closer to 500hp, many of the middle of the pack cars in HMC would seem to be up around 500hp with those with a few more dollars and knowledge probably over 600hp. So its not only classes of the cars but also the performance increases that should be considered.

[Kiwiboss]

Even under Dale's watchfull eye, it appears that those cars running in HMC are devaloping much more horsepower than they did period. Technology has moved on, methods of gaining hp have changed more than subtley, so where does the line stop. The OSCA V8's were getting around 400hp, thats the good ones, back in the 70's and 80's, with the exception of the Wills RX8, that was getting closer to 500hp, many of the middle of the pack cars in HMC would seem to be up around 500hp with those with a few more dollars and knowledge probably over 600hp. So its not only classes of the cars but also the performance increases that should be considered.

You are correct Markec, i have 100 more HP than Moffat had back in the day and the Gimblett Camaro is 600HP(500 at wheels) early on we figured we can't stop what some have as long as the rest of the car was correct, so all we could do is restrict it, EG: iron heads, stock port spacing and valve angle, but to myself and others the most important part of HMC was Body(iron panels), Suspension, steering, Wheel size, bias period tyres, interior/exterior correctness. To fit 15" wheels required a max 12.25 dia rotor, we added that to keep historic correctness in brakes the calipers must be a 2 piece lug mount design from the era, and from there we can chip away at the other items so although not prefect still pretty close(for NZ anyway)

If i had my way i would have completely adopted the Australian Group Nc rules as their attention to detail and for rule accuracy in Historic Saloon car racing is fantastic, unfortunately not a single vehicle in NZ would have comply'd so would have meant building a complete fleet from scratch, something at my age of early 50's i doubt i'd live to see, but this would have been the best way!!

Also, under T&C and basing the HMC rules on similar vehicles raced in the day, any complying vehicle can use its correct engine as supplied by the factory in a "standard series production" car so although my Boss 302 is currently 358 its still no larger than a 351, 390 or even a Boss 429 engine which i can use, and probably produced more HP, same as a early Camaro that can use a 427 BB. The secret being is you gotta make the rest of the car LIVE with all this HP, and too much horsepower with not much else makes for a spectacle atleast.

Heres a great quote i got from Tony Roberts the other day: "The problem is that modern knowledge can take an idea that didn’t work in period and fix it in the 2000’s" and that one sentence is sooo correct when it comes to ANY old car racing, rite down to Alfas, Escorts, Mini's, etc

Also, and this important to remember, all HMC vehicles have their correct style of engine fitted, they are NOT "Repowered Classic's"

Dale M

[Steve Holmes]

Even under Dale's watchfull eye, it appears that those cars running in HMC are devaloping much more horsepower than they did period. Technology has moved on, methods of gaining hp have changed more than subtley, so where does the line stop. The OSCA V8's were getting around 400hp, thats the good ones, back in the 70's and 80's, with the exception of the Wills RX8, that was getting closer to 500hp, many of the middle of the pack cars in HMC would seem to be up around 500hp with those with a few more dollars and knowledge probably over 600hp. So its not only classes of the cars but also the performance increases that should be considered.

Thats a really great point Mark, although I would say in many ways horsepower has just become cheaper, which has made it more accessible to more people. The HMC rules bare many similarities with those of Australian Improved Production, of the late 1960s through 1972 period, which bore cars such as Bob Janes ZL1 Camaro, Norm Beecheys HT Monaro, Pete Geoghegans Super Falcon, Allan Moffats Coke Mustang etc.

The Geoghegan Super Falcon was producing 620hp in 1972, which was a phenomenal amount for the period. Bob Janes Camaro and even his new HQ Monaro which appeared right at the end of the Improved Production era were both said to be producing 600hp. Even now there aren't that many HMC cars that have more power than the Geoghegan Falcon, but back in 1972 it was massively expensive to buy that sort of horsepower, whereas now its much cheaper.

Its now possible to buy 850hp Nascar motors which is what is happening in the Central Muscle Cars group, which is really phenomenal power. But the HMC engine rules will never allow those types of motors to be used, and cars must retain their original bonnet, which limits the height of the inlet manifold they can run, therefore also limiting horsepower. There are often tricks to achieve more power, but power is only useful if you can use it, so by limiting wheel and tyre width, and tyre grip, reducing brake size, and the way the suspension performs, there is usually a limit to how much horsepower is actually useful.

As far as horsepower gains comparing cars in period to how they are now, I would think Formula 5000 has probably made greater gains than the HMC cars.

[Steve Holmes]

Can anyone please tell me how Clark Poctor's Nissan powered Escort was allowed to run at the Hulme festival? Great to see the car, but a high degree of hypocrisy here?

With my own car, after numerous battles, (one major win!) it is getting near to being on the road thanks to the guys at LVVTA.

As I am out of action at the moment, plenty of time to think, but to repeat what has been said before, we have an under supported Schedule K for pure classic saloons. A class that everyone raves about, but when push comes to shove, very few actively support it. (Less than 10% of our current 115 cars have a K CoD.)

Why do HMC cars need a comprehensive set of regs? Why not just Schedule K?

We have a T & C set of rules that may be a little bit looser than Schedule K, but don't adequately reflect the requirements of the majority of active racers and in some areas are so close to K that it renders T & C effectiveness and desirability questionable.

There is no CR for repowered saloons.

Yet, if I were to post a survey of 25 saloons, old and new, but without any engine details being disclosed and asked any casual observer simply to categorise them as old/classic or modern, then there is no doubt at all in my mind that no repowered classic could possibly be thought of as modern.

Having ascertained that, and surveyed 25 'classics' with repowers dating from before the cars were originally built, to a repower from the period it was built, to modern engines, then where would Clark Proctor's Nissan powered Escort fit and where would a Magnette/Rover fit? One is welcomed into the classic fold by virtue of racing at the Hulme Festival, the other still sits in no mans land? I can totally destroy the purity of the Marcos by dumping the scarce, slow, heavy, Volvo six, still with even scarcer original Volvo manual 4 speed gearbox, and pop in a Rover V8, but I can't rescue a 1956 heap from the scrapyard and use the same engine. Sad lack of logic here somewhere.

Ray, surely your V8 Magnette could also race in that Allcomer group with the Proctor Escort? Why would you not be allowed in there?

[RogerH]

Ray, surely your V8 Magnette could also race in that Allcomer group with the Proctor Escort? Why would you not be allowed in there?

The "Escort" was running in the Pre 85 Open Saloons with other "re-powers" such as the Roger Williams Mercedes and the Dobbe Viva. I presume that the criteria for entry was that there was some established period history with the re-power and accordingly there may be a question as to how period the modifications to the "Escort" actually are.
If the significant modifications are not period then it probably shouldn't have been allowed to run in that grid - if this is the case then I don't think it should create a precedent that would open things up for more modern re-powers.

[Kiwiboss]

The "Escort" was running in the Pre 85 Open Saloons with other "re-powers" such as the Roger Williams Mercedes and the Dobbe Viva. I presume that the criteria for entry was that there was some established period history with the re-power and accordingly there may be a question as to how period the modifications to the "Escort" actually are.
If the significant modifications are not period then it probably shouldn't have been allowed to run in that grid - if this is the case then I don't think it should create a precedent that would open things up for more modern re-powers.

"I presume that the criteria for entry was that there was some established period history with the re-power"

Yes, this is/was surpose to be the criteria. Dale M

[ERC]

Ray, surely your V8 Magnette could also race in that Allcomer group with the Proctor Escort? Why would you not be allowed in there?

As I understand it, the rules for entry to the meeting wouldn't allow it. However, please bear in mind the Magnette is a road car, not a race car and was built with low key competition on mind.

One of the reasons I didn't enter the Hulme with the Marcos is the performance and size difference between my car and others. When I visualise large 500bhp+ metal bodied cars in HMC, sharing the track with my 90bhp at the wheels tiny fibeglass car, or racing against Tony Roberts 700bhp Corvette in the Sports GT race, then sorry, I see potential problems.

Ditto with the Magnette you run amongst cars of a similar performance and putting a fairly standard 190bhp Rover engined car against 500bhp monsters is not on.