New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC

[Oldfart]

I can see this thread getting away from its original intent, to promote and provide news on the HMC.

The valid discussion on the running of historic events should perhaps be taken to a new thread?

Yep

[Kiwiboss]

Yes Pallmall, little of topic, but a good discussion anyway. As a final word, how about each one of us look at all Classic/Historic racing for the betterment of the sport rather than whats in it for ME, ME, ME, surely you guys can understand that? nothing is perfect and god bless us classic racing isn't!! NO event will ever be run exactly how each one of us wants it, there will always some amount of unfairness but lets just enjoy what we have and get on with it, all im trying to do with MY imput and HMC is make it a little better and fairer. I look at the effort Jim Barclay, Tony, Chris put into the festival and go WOW, they need our help not our criticism. Yes, we can go on and on about this that and the other(including myself) but i just ask you to stop and think for a minute and look for the positive, and how about a hand as well!! I still believe we got it pretty good down here in NZ

Over and Out. Dale M

[Howard Wood]

Stroppy and competetive buggers aren't you?

The beauty of running an historic type car is precisely that you can be as competetive as you choose (and within reason spend as much or as little as you choose) and still have fun. This applies not only during a race but also in your choice of race. There are so many different classes and meetings that a T & C or Sched K compliant car is eligible for. If chasing trophies is your thing, find a series that you can win in!

The combined HMC and U3L class is as Dale says, not a series or championship and only runs at the larger "festival" type events where putting on a good show and being part of the whole scene is probably the biggest part of it. I for one am happy to spend all race being a pain to the larger cars knowing full well that come the climb up to the start/ finish I will be swamped again. Doesn't mean that I am not going to stop developing the car or trying as hard as poss.

I will also run in the BMW under 2 litre class where the car is a front runner and they hand out trophies like confetti, different deal and focus, lots of fun too just different. Surely there is room for both?

[AMCO72]

I am replying on this thread because it has to do with HMC, and ONLY HMC. Nowhere did I say that this class was unfair, or that drivers were intent on winning ' at all cost'. ALL I said was that drivers in HMC go out to RACE, HARD, and get to the chequered flag ahead, if possible, of the guy in front. Howard has said that although he knows he is going to get caught on the main straight by the Muscle Cars, that is not going to stop him..developing his car and DRIVING AS HARD AS POSSIBLE!! We are out there to RACE. We are not playing tiddly-winks. There is nothing in what I have said that is about ME, ME, ME!!! All the cars out there are producing a lot more HP than they did originally, if they didn't they would be trailing around at the rear of the field, and believe me I've done a bit of that. It's not my preferred place on the track, so I do a bit more tinkering so I can move up the grid a few places. Of course the guys in front of me are doing the same thing, so you just start chasing your tail and call a halt.
I am not interested in winning trophys. I am interested in going out and pitting myself with like minded enthusiasts, but for people to say that we are not interested in winning, if a bit of luck comes our way, well we are in the wrong game. Some times, at my age, I am fortunate to finish the damn race in one piece, let alone cross the finish line first, and I suspect that SOME of the correspondents on here are not actually out there doing the business......yes, they may have once upon a time, but I suggest to them that if they actually competed in this HMC class they would find the racing fast and furious, and every bit as tough as the OLD days, without hopefully the panel damage.
Right, have I made myself clear this time? I will go along with anything that our 'Great Helmsman' suggests, and continue to compete while MSNZ issues me with a licence, and I can scratch up a few bob from the pension fund. 'Stroppy and competitive' Howard.....I dont think so.
And Dale, have a good break in the USA. Maybe you will come back with some more ideas. Thats great. Meantime we will try to behave ourselves in your absence!!!!

[kiwi285]

From a spectators point of view I want to see the historic cars being raced the way they should. It dosen't worry me who wins so long as there is no damage done to the cars and the drivers have enjoyed themselves.

Back in the days, the results were as much a product of the driver abilities as much cars potential and a lot of those drivers and their mechanics are no longer competing or involved. Some of those driver were such charismatic characters with amazing abilities.

Just great to see the cars being used again and to hear them operating at racing speeds - however fast that is.

[Kiwiboss]

I have been advised by chris Watson(HRC) that the September Ice Breaker meeting is NOW on the 15th and 16th of September.

Prep those HMC and U3L Saloons

Dale M

[Steve Holmes]

Dales latest HMC Newsletter:

Greetings HMC Racers and Fans

I had a great saying put to me recently, HMC is about “Wine and Cheese Racing” I had never thought of it like that but I had to agree, yes he was correct, HMC “is” about “Wine and Cheese Racing” because really, we’re only about hooning around the race track in our old dinosaur race cars at Historic and Classic meetings, sure we'll will push the limits and drive like Parnelli, Fahey, Moffat, Marwood did back in the golden days, all in the cause of having fun, so yes I happen to agree, we are the new “Wine and Cheese” Historic Saloon class at Classic meetings, if you think the same? well come on over!! it did put a smile on my face (:

I have just recently returned from the US and Australia, in the US I was at the Somona Historic’s at Sears Point in the Wine Country, San Francisco were the Historic Trans Am group had their first event of the season, I spoke at length to their drivers about racing with HMC down under next summer, I have a few interested parties so will see what comes of this. The next weekend it was across to Watkins Glen for the joint SVRA(Sports Vintage Racing Ass)/Shelby Nationals where I made contact with other proposed historic racers, and last weekend it was the Queensland Raceway for the Shannon’s 2 days of Thunder event, very well run and nice warm weather(or cold if you’re an Aussie) our mates in the Australian Trans Am group had one of their rounds with18 cars entered, they are doing well with their group and have made steady progress and have more vehicles in the pipe line. They also made myself and the other Kiwi’s there very welcome and it was great to catch up with those that raced at the BMW festival in January, so thanks guys.(See pictures added)

I have been asked about Vehicle Compliance and Scrutinizing, all vehicles/owners wishing to race at HMC events must have a pre-inspection for rule eligibility/compliance, please don’t expect to enter and turn up thinking that should any issues arise, you will be allowed to race and remedied the issues at a later date, this won’t happen as NON legal vehicles cannot race. If you’re considering acceptance please contact any of the 3 directors for compliance, this can be difficult if you are outside the general area of us 3, but we will endeavour to be available whenever possible, I have already inspected vehicles in Auckland and the South Island(Skope this year). If you are down south I can generally sort this out via some decent E-mail pictures and phone calls. Don’t do this a week before an event because we will have organising issues that will keep us busy and you will possibly be stood down until processed. Remember, we directors are all voluntary with other lives(yeah rite) in the future we will be looking to having a HMC representative handle compliance/inspection, now there’s a job if anyone wants to hold their hand up? Also, we at HMC are NOT Safety scrutineer’s, scrutineering is done for event/vehicle safety by MSNZ official’s at the track prior to any meeting, they aren’t interested in class compliance rules.

Rule definitions to one person always seen to mean something different to another, when infact they should really mean the same, but we know life isn't like that so below I’ve listed what some of you have enquired about, and what this actually means for you and your HMC racer in no particular order:

1. When reading the HMC regulations the very second paragraph needs to be read with eyes wide open, this is in the MSNZ T&C regulations for modified Saloons that we at HMC have not changed or reworded one iota, its word for word as written in the Motorsport manual, SO, when reading the "Thoroughbred & Classic Car Regulations Objectives" there are two words in the objectives in capital letters " ONLY ALLOWABLE" yes only allowable, what does the only allowable mean? it basically means that if you take at "Standard Series Production" based vehicle, you can only modify the components as allowed as written "below" in the quoted regulations, other than these quoted rules the rest of the "Standard Series Production vehicle" must remain just that "Standard" as it was manufactured and sold from the dealers show room, how does this work you say? well, when someone phones me asking about certain objectives like say, "can i remove the bonnet hinges and have a lift of bonnet" my answer is always "how was your particular vehicle manufactured and sold by the dealer, did it have a lift of bonnet when sold new, well the answer is usually no!! so i then say thats how your HMC vehicle must be, you've already answered your own question, simple!! so from this, all proposed HMC racers must understand that because we are really only "Classic Car Racers" your vehicle must remain as standard as possible, it must have door, boot and bonnet hinges, wind up windows, working headlights, correct bumpers, grill and moldings, door panels and handles, wipers, inner guards and on and on!! now we at HMC are not about been regulation crazy and make you have a working horn, indicators, bonnet and boot latches, door locks, badges, etc not interested, we are about common sence ruling of the "main" components as mentioned, im still more than happy to answer any questions if youre unsure, it does take a bit of getting your head around but you must remember, this was how most of the original saloons from our era were raced, usually straight from the showroom floor and this is what we at HMC are trying to replicate.

2. The same type of suspension must remain, you cannot reinvent what you particular vehicle never came with.

3. You can take your original suspension components and modify them for the purposes of racing, EG example, use a rod end were there’s normally a tie rod end, strengthen the suspension arms, etc.

4. Because of 1, you cannot fit Coil over spring/shocks, Shocks and springs must be mounted Factory as per your particular vehicle however that may have been

5. Because of 2, you can’t use aftermarket tube suspension arms(must use original component’s)

6. Steering box must remain in the original position, most vehicles in HMC would come with a steering box bolted to the chassis(Camaro, Mustang, Falcon, Monaro, etc) because of this you are allowed to fit any other style steering box that is of the same type and must also be bolted to the chassis in the same position! A good example of this is a Torana LX Hatch which came with a non P/S rack and pinion factory, you can remove and fit a power steering rack and pinion from another vehicle like say a Subaru? but it must be fitted in the original position. You cannot fit a chassis mounted style steering box to a vehicle fitted with a rack and pinion and vice verse, same as same goes.

7. Body work must be “Standard Series Production” and as most Muscle cars came with steel panels(except Corvettes) so steel it must be. There are exceptions like Shelby Mustangs that came with some fibreglass panels, these can only be used on your regular Mustang if it is off the same style "Body Model " but must be “exactly” as fitted on a Shelby and to qualify a 100 or more vehicles must have been fitted with these panels, EG: Eleanor Mustang kit panels non legal because not a Factory Standard Series Production item, same with Dekon Monza, and the same goes for a 69 Mach 1 bonnet scoop on a 65 Mustang or an A9X Torana scoop on a Monaro, all different Body Models.

8. Fender Flares, it is OK to fold the fender lips up and pump out the fender for clearance, what you can’t do is physically cut the fender flare and add metal to make them oversize, or heat and hand beat the fender that when finished doesn’t ressemble its original shape, or fit any race style flare that wasn’t fitted to a “Standard series Production” vehicle like say a Cologne Capri for instance, they never made more than 100 Cologne's to fit the Standard Series Production rule so can’t be used. I would say that this rule will be a judgement call by some but it'll be the 3 HMC directors will have the final say so before you weld on those big ears, contact us first.

9. 15X10 wheels are maximum width, unfortunately there are just some vehicles that you physically can’t fit a 10” wide wheel under, you must fit the width wheel to suit your car been regulated by #8 above. For instance a Capri is pretty much limited to a 8” wide rim, anything over that and we will be looking hard at how its fitted.

10. Brake Master Cylinder/Cylinders must be mounted in the original position your particular vehicle came with, for most this is the upper engine bay firewall either LH or RH side. You are allowed to fit a pedal box brake system using twin braking cylinders but these must be mounted to that upper firewall in the original position, in other words no floor mount or inside reverse mount master cylinders/pedal box systems.

End of Part 1

[Steve Holmes]

Part 2:

11. Brake calipers listed under T&C are FREE, free ONLY means that you can use ANY brake Caliper that is of a style pre 12/1977, it must be a 2 piece bolt together caliper. Prior to 12/77 Wilwood use to be JFZ, their current Dynalite, Superlite, SL6, GNIII still made and sold new today have been around since before then, where their more modern 2 piece Wilwood calipers, along with some AP and Brembo Calipers cannot be used because their “style” is not pre 12/77, make sure you check before you buy!! All post 12/77 mono block style calipers are not legal.

12. You are allowed to fit Perspex/Plex-I glass windows(not windscreen), but these windows must be mounted in their original frames and mechanism so they can be wound up and down as per a Standard Series Production” vehicle, in other words you can’t just screw the perspex windows to the door frame.

13. Engines, most pre 12/77 Muscle cars on our eligibility list came with many styles of engines, the style of engine is based on 2 items, block deck height and cylinder head configuration which is determined by valve angle and port spacing. You can only use what your particular vehicle came with, lets look at a 65 Mustang Fastback as example? they only ever came with a 289 SB ford engine with a 8.2 deck block and Windsor style cylinder heads,(cast iron offcourse) because of this you cannot fit a 351 Windsor, Cleveland or Big Block, the block deck height is taller on all these engines and the Cleveland engine came with different cylinder heads, got that? some vehicles like a 69 Camaro came with just about every possible engine combination Chevrolet offered so is easy controlled, offcourse it still has to be an engine that was “Standard Series Production” that they made more than a 100 off so for you Chevy guys sorry, NO ZL1 Camaros which really means NO alloy blocks.

14. Cylinder Heads: Just about every pre 12/77 Muscle car on our eligibility list came with cast iron heads, these can be replaced with any Dart/RHS style iron replacement head but must be the same Valve angle and port spacing, so don’t buy a set of 18 degree iron heads for your SB Chev, not legal. These Iron heads can be ported to suit your requirements. Because they made more than “100 Standard series production” gen 1 big Block Camaros with alloy heads you are allowed to use these, but you are restricted to the OEM NHRA legal GM part number 12363408 replacement alloy head “only” and must be fitted “as out of the box” and cannot be modified in anyway, sure you can cut the valves etc but you cannot weld up and modify the ports, check with us for compliance before you fit a set.

15. You are allowed to fit any Aluminium cylinder head to any eligible HMC vehicle that was used in NZ/Australian motorsport prior to 12/77, that means you small block Ford guys can use Gurney Westlake alloy heads because Fahey used them here in NZ back in 67, Torana XUI's can use a Duggan alloy head also, this is a tricky statement that is meant to allow "old Period" engine componets for that historic look, now if you thinking perfomance wise you're better off with a set of expensive old Gurneys, then you just go for it because todays technoloy has left them in the dust, its that great under bonnet Historic and Classic look that were really after. For this same reason you are allowed to use weber carburetors, twin 4 barrel carburetors, even lucas fuel injection, etc but all these carburetor systems MUST fit under the Standard Series Production" bonnet, if they won't fit? well you can't use them can you!! self regulating it is.

16. Can i use a 2 piece driveshaft, same as i've constantly mentioned above, was your Standard Series Production" vehicle fitted with a 2 piece driveshaft? usually NO and if theres no mention of allowance in the regulations you can't have.

17. All interior trim must be installed except the headliner, carpets and back seat can be removed. The original Dash Pad/Panel must remain, the gauge panel in front of the driver can be replaced with one using aftermarket gauges. You can fit switch’s and other controls on the driveshaft tunnel or other parts for the dash panel, we want the general dash panel to look correct for your model vehicle, but modifications and holes for hardware mounting this is OK.

So once again, any questions about rule compliance and definitions please do contact us, we are here to help.

Below is next summer’s race dates: Please note, Possibility of a one day TACCOC event Sunday Nov 4th at Hampton, more to come.

PLEASE NOTE: ICE BREAKER DATE CHANGE, NOW 15/16[SUP]TH[/SUP] SEPTEMBER

1 - Ice Breaker, 15/16th September 2012 at Hampton Downs
2 - Denny Hulme Festival, 18/20th January 2013 at Hampton Downs
3 - Denny Hulme Festival, 25/27th January 2013 at Hampton Downs
4 - Legends of Speed, 23/4th March 2013 at Hampton Downs

The Ice Breaker is first up this year so aim for this one, you have 3 months!! through the winter I'll keep you all reminded. Once again we are not about having large fields, we only want HMC and T&C legal cars and if we only have 6 or so cars, so be it. We will be racing with the under 3L Historic Saloons as well, most of us will be ready to dust of our cars(and ourselves) off by the time this event rolls around.

Also check out the current Classic Car Magazine for Steve Holmes monthly article and ramble about HMC's goings on, we also have further articles in NZV8 and Greg Sstokes has kindly added our race dates to NZ Hot Rod Magazine. Also in today’s high tech world it is a must to keep up with the play on thehttp://www.theroaringseason.com/forumdisplay.php?2-General-Discussion with some fantastic picture’s athttp://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?65-New-Zealand-Historic-Muscle-Cars-Under-HRC

Historic Muscle Car Tee Shirts are available for $20 each plus postage, E-mail me for size’s and colour.

That’s it from me again this month, any questions and queries don't hesitate to contact Myself, Tony or Steve. Remember if you are changing your car to suit HMC/MSNZ T&C Rules or building a new racer you will NOT be racing with other non compliant cars, its a level playing field for all. Lets keep the "Classic and Historic" in Classic and Historic racing. And I know I don't need to remind you but remember, "The Cars are the Stars" so that’s all from me for May 12, feel free to contact me or anyone of the directors below.

To race and be apart of HMC you need to join HRC http://www.grandprix.org.nz/Contact_Us.wse their $50 membership deal is a bargain, and a requirement to race.

HMC WEBSITE: http://www.historicmusclecars.co.nz/

PLEASE NOTE: If you wish to be removed from this E-mailout please let me know, if you wish to add someone please do the same.

Take care and enjoy your Historic Motor sport

Dale Mathers [email="[email protected]"][email protected][/email]

[Steve Holmes]

The latest car being rebuilt for HMC, this is Glenn Allinghams awesome big block '68 Camaro. Glenn has been campaigning the car in various classes over the years, but is now converting it for HMC. This was the first step, swapping in some 15" Superlite wheels and Goodyear Bluestreaks (the car previously wore 17" wheels). As we speak, the car is being fit with cast iron heads and the correct hood with lower cowl scoop.

This car is currently for sale if anyone is interested.

[Kiwiboss]

HMC has had an update done to the rule on "brakes", this is to close a "loophole" below is the new wording in bold

3.11 Brakes: Brakes are “Free” except that all disc and drum friction surfaces must be made from ferrous material. Aftermarket “Substitute Part” two piece bolt together, fixed lug mounting aluminium calipers allowed. Modern mono-block or Radial mount calipers are not permissible. Cooling ducts may be fitted. Master Cylinder or Cylinders are to remain in the original position

Dale M

[John McKechnie]

I have a question on rear windows.Can a perspex window be used with the securing straps? If the perspex is the correct size it is ok. But what about the securing straps-are they legal or not. This is not for me, but I have been asked this by a windscreen guy.

[Kiwiboss]

Hi John

All very simple as per the rules below:

3.4 Glazing: Fitting of a laminated windscreen is strongly recommended. All other glazing may be substituted with alternative transparent material, but original fixing medium must be used including operating mechanisms. Rear screens to be minimum 5 mm thick

You will note the words “original fixing medium” in the rules which means yes you can used Perspex, plexi-glass, etc but the rear window must be mounted in the original rubber, not screwed to the frame, and NO securing straps, the same with the door glass and side windows, you still must beable to wined the windows up and down and open them!!


Dale M

[RogerH]

Hi John

All very simple as per the rules below:

3.4 Glazing: Fitting of a laminated windscreen is strongly recommended. All other glazing may be substituted with alternative transparent material, but original fixing medium must be used including operating mechanisms. Rear screens to be minimum 5 mm thick

You will note the words “original fixing medium” in the rules which means yes you can used Perspex, plexi-glass, etc but the rear window must be mounted in the original rubber, not screwed to the frame, and NO securing straps, the same with the door glass and side windows, you still must beable to wined the windows up and down and open them!!


Dale M

Just playing the devil's advocate Dale - the wording in your regs may need a little tightening if you want to exclude securing straps. As it reads, someone could use Perplex etc using the original fixing medium (original rubber) but also use securing straps.
If you re-worded along these lines it would solve the problem (addition in bold) :

3.4 Glazing: Fitting of a laminated windscreen is strongly recommended. All other glazing may be substituted with alternative transparent material, but only the original fixing medium must be used including operating mechanisms. Rear screens to be minimum 5 mm thick

[Oldfart]

I thought that MSNZ required securing bars for perspex rear windows? Looks wrong, but I know that we had to have them on the Alpine for Targa.

[John McKechnie]

Why else do you think I asked this exact question!!

[Kiwiboss]

It appears that all Appendix two - Schedule A vehicles post 1978 require 2, 3mm X 25mm straps with a plastic rear window fitted, under Appendix six - Schedule AA T&C and CR pre 78 vehicles this appears not to be the case, but before i make a final ruling on this im waiting for some further information.

Back to you all soon

Dale M

[John McKechnie]

Appendix 2, schedule A,Read 5.11 (4) (c) says MUST have 2 straps...................................

[Kiwiboss]

Correct John, i check with a MSNZ scrutineer and if you have a plastic rear window you need 2 of 3mm X 5mm straps attached to the body to hold the rear window just incase it blows out!! end of story, even if its ugly. Easier just the leave the glass rear window in.

Dale M

[John McKechnie]

Price and availability of most back windows for these old car can justify fitting plastic and 2 straps.

[Kiwiboss]

This rule is an original T&C ruling from way back, which we at HMC have used, we won't be changing any wording, if any proposed HMC racer wants to fit a plastic rear window with MSNZ legal straps thats fine by us, and as you mention John, with some old cars price and availability can be an issue so this does help.

Dale M(HMC director)