Discuss the various formats for historic racing

[jim short]

Amco even I have heard of Russ {the good one}back in Bob Moores time and Jammie plus I think did a spell in record breaking cars at Bonniville??

[AMCO72]

Thats ok. You see you guys go back way beyond me. Jim are you talking about the world record breaker by the name of Noble. And
dont jump down my throat Jum.....I was only asking a civil question. This is not the 'Jim's Jag' thread where civility has gone out the window.

[nzeder]

Well great posts guys, I am new to your forum and I enjoying the banter already. Dave PC Racing....may it never catch on...hang on

Right back on topic I believe not one of us likes to classic and historic cars (or motorbikes for those of us that have a soft spot for 2 wheels too) damaged on the track so the "rubbing is racing" types need not apply. This is why I like classic/historic racing - different marque, models, historically significant cars out on the track driven as they should be and generally drivers given each other space as not to damage said vehicles.

Markec in the first post mentioned get more bums on seats watching the sport we love with a spectacle. So how does the sport do that given all the activities that seem to be around these days and gunning for our free time and the little disposable income we might have left. When I was in my 20's I was active in car club activities, 30's work took over.....now I just hit my 40's with a young family (I want more time on my cars, wife want another kid....??? I am a big enough kid for the whole family) time for me is limited. So that makes me think when I was in my 20's I like going to the track to watch and even race my first car - so I asked the young guy I have working for me what he gets up to. I am sure those older than me with kids in their 20's will know the answer. We went to track they go LAN parties??? Now I work in IT and I don't get it why would you want to join PC's together and play games for 48 hours. The young guy said but why race an old car that you have to work on before and after an event. For me the answer is simple it is mechanical and nothing like working with PCs.

So are we a dieing bred? What will classic racing look like in 20 years time when I am in my 60's will we still have F5000's, muscle cars from the 60-70's, under 3l saloons, sports & GTs. Cars today are seen more like a consumer appliance than a piece of engineering excellence + will the cars of the 90's and today be around or have people like us keeping them going - I hope not as modern cars are nice to drive but lack the character of a classic. I hope one of my kids will pickup the torch and enjoy classic cars and the track as much as I do.

[RGM]

As I thought this thread is interesting even with the wanderings from topic.
With reference to reverse grid races I am dead against them any one around inthe 80s at the club circuit series at Pukekohe will remember the horrendis crashes on the sweeper and on the back straight as the faster cars tried to come through on the first lap.
More recently at Manfield 2010 6 or 7 cars out in the first lap,racers are racers and once the flag drops the brain is often switched off and the red mist comes down.
Now handicap racing if done well it is entertaining to watch and most driver know what to expect and by the time it gets interesting they have settled and are aware of the blue flag and the faster cars coming through.

[AMCO72]

Fully with you there RGM. My experience with rev grids has not been a happy one. As I said somewhere else, the ONLY time rev grid works is when all the cars are of similar [read same] performance, and even there the usual is top-ten reverse.

[Oldfart]

Now I know I am somewhat of an oddity (before anyone else said it) but my "just turned 22 year old" is chasing round the UK watching race meetings. So far, apart from the need to see F1, he has stated that historics are way more interesting, so I think NZeder that there is hope. Those cars which we thought were lost for all time are still being found, I suspect we will have plenty of cool things to look at from the safety of our zimmer frames. Being the size he is, he won't fit in my cars, then again has a somewhat better budget so I am waiting to see what he comes up with. And the seat can always go forward!
I think we currently have a number, like me, who could not persuade the family accountant that going racing was an option, and they are now trying to live the dream. Most of us did the "club thing" and gymkhanas, grasstrack, hillclimbs were what we could do. I guess that I was not alone in doing 50+ club events over a 2 year period with our road cars, even if it had already done a couple of Heatway rallies as mine had.
Those, like Jim, Bob H, the Rogers, etc who have taken part over the years have a slightly different slant. For many of those like me, just being out there is the buzz, and the older I get, I am sure that the faster I was.

[Russ Noble]

Good evening Russ Noble. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting you so I don't know whether you are a 'bigtime' race car driver, or indead an X bigtime racecar driver. You write a very good letter which sounds very professional and knowledgable. I have looked up your profile, but it doesn't enlighten me at all as to your prowess as a driver. Could I just respectfully ask you.....do you, or have you raced in a Classic car race recently, and if so, what is the vehicle of your choice. Please forgive my ignorance in this matter, as at my age I have trouble recalling peoples names from the racing scene. Thanks.

Have dabbled in the past, in the 70's BT18, BT21A, Noble Sports. In the 80's FFHustler, RF73. But never at Bonneville. Currently have a GT40 look-a-like that went OK in Classics, Sports & GT . As a matter of interest often in the scratch races I would start off the back of the grid anyway. More fun for me and good for the spectators. Don't think I took anyone out on the way through....

Lets face it, in reverse grid races everyone starts at the same time, the only 'disadvantage' is the distance back on the grid and there is the whole race to get through to the front. Guys that get the red mist in the first corner will cause problems elsewhere anyway and should be spoken to, and if they don't fall in line should be banned. There is no need for that sort of shit at this level.

GT40 is out of action at present so have just bought an RF92 (not eligible for classics) to have a bit of fun in SIFF races this season

[AMCO72]

Thanks for your reply Russ. Now I know where you are coming from.
Incidently going on from what I said. It would be handy if forum members could fill in their profiles so we can all appreciate what they have done. I got ticked off by a forum member for not filling in mine, not that there was much to say, but at least you can now find out a bit of my background should you so desire.

[jim short]

Better still ask me that way you will get a better picture .I have known him when he was milking cows

[Russ Noble]

I think we currently have a number, like me, who could not persuade the family accountant that going racing was an option, and they are now trying to live the dream. Most of us did the "club thing" and gymkhanas, grasstrack, hillclimbs were what we could do. I guess that I was not alone in doing 50+ club events over a 2 year period with our road cars,.

Nope, not alone, in the 60's I had an ex Post Office Hillman Minx I bought as a write off, did all that you mentioned plus Tahuna Beach racing, rallies, and trials. Over a couple of years it sprouted disc brakes, home modified downported head, twin Webers, 1905cc shortblock, uprated springs, Konis, roof spot, also got the first set of SP44s that came into Chch. I was a draughting cadet on a pretty minimal salary and I soon found trials/rallies were quite expensive to do and thought I would get better bang for the bucks (always a consideration) going motor racing. In the late 60s the Minx became the tow vehicle and I bought my first single seater. Valour Ford 1500 pushrod. Certainly fun times.

[Russ Noble]

Better still ask me that way you will get a better picture .I have known him when he was milking cows

You must have been the person who said "Watch that one, it kicks" Just as I was picking myself up off the ground

[bob homewood]

Interesting comment on the down port head Russ ,plenty of people know you can down port the Ford 105E type heads ,but its possible to do a similar thing with the Rootes head

[Russ Noble]

Better still ask me that way you will get a better picture .I have known him when he was milking cows

You must have been the person who said "Watch that one, it kicks".......... Just as I was picking myself up off the ground

[Russ Noble]

The Rootes heads are similar construction to the Ford. Although if I were to do it again, I would seriously look at the alloy Rapier/Hunter head. Cost and availability ruled out the Rapier head at the time. Plus I wasn't 100% certain that it would be successful. The Hunter hadn't been invented then....

[bob homewood]

Yes I did one a long time ago ,it worked out ok ,I have a funny idea I used the Ford Anglia inlet manifolds and welded and redrilled the flanges ,too long ago now ,I know I also stroked the crank by getting it hard chromed ,every one said it wouldn't work but it did ,I think I used something like Perkins 4/99 big end shells on it

[Parnelli]

Have dabbled in the past, in the 70's BT18, BT21A, Noble Sports. In the 80's FFHustler, RF73. But never at Bonneville. Currently have a GT40 look-a-like that went OK in Classics, Sports & GT . As a matter of interest often in the scratch races I would start off the back of the grid anyway. More fun for me and good for the spectators. Don't think I took anyone out on the way through....

Lets face it, in reverse grid races everyone starts at the same time, the only 'disadvantage' is the distance back on the grid and there is the whole race to get through to the front. Guys that get the red mist in the first corner will cause problems elsewhere anyway and should be spoken to, and if they don't fall in line should be banned. There is no need for that sort of shit at this level.

GT40 is out of action at present so have just bought an RF92 (not eligible for classics) to have a bit of fun in SIFF races this season

Hi Russ, Welcome aboard the forum. It’s great to have you here. Members can catch up with some of Russ’s resent endeavors on GT40;s.com – kiwi scratchbuilt. A fantastic effort and an extremely professional diary of his build and subsequent race development. I too, have never meet Russ , but have come to appreciate his and Lim’s dedication and enthusiasm . Russ, I couldn’t agree more with your comments on Driver’s attitude when participating in reverse grid races. Yes, reverse grid races are best applicable to similar performance cars but have been run successfully by PMC’s for years now ( in conjunction with Handicap races ) with virtually no damage resulting. It all comes down to Driver attitude. And don’t both make for entertaining viewing and enjoyable racing. As I suggested , this was perfectly displayed last weekend at the Supertourer’s meeting where they ran spectacular reverse grid and handicap races.

[Russ Noble]

More recently at Manfield 2010 6 or 7 cars out in the first lap,racers are racers and once the flag drops the brain is often switched off and the red mist comes down.
Now handicap racing if done well it is entertaining to watch and most driver know what to expect and by the time it gets interesting they have settled and are aware of the blue flag and the faster cars coming through.

OK, I'll go along with that. Just means that someone has to be available to work out the handicapping rather than just post the grid straight up off the computer.

Certainly good for the spectators and it should spread the winners around a bit more too, which is good for the whole field. Virtually anyone could win with a modicum of luck and the odd favorable handicap.

Could I also suggest that although handicapping is worked out generally on lap times, that genuine historic cars be handicapped more favourably than similar replicas etc. This should give the guys with the true documented historics the chance to shine. Which is really what its all about.

OK, I know that could cause a bit of angst with some competitors, but as intimated by someone earlier, why should a guy in a valuable historic car go hard, wheel to wheel with someone in a similar replica that does not have the same value or pedigree? Anyone objects, maybe they'd be better suited to the club racing scene or just run something in Tier 1.......

Think I better duck away and put my Nomex on.......

[AMCO72]

Russ, I would be all for your paragraph 3. I could start off the front of the grid in my genuine historic car and SHINE.. maybe even, shock horror,......win!!!! However, suppose that Genuine Historic car was driven by an X Tier 1 champion. I dont think the rest of the field would take too kindly to him being in such an advantageous position. I have a sneaky suspicion that some of them are a bit nervous of his presence on a Historic grid in the first place, and their thinking would be that he can start off the back, and then some. He should be, and probably is the most wide awake driver in the pack, because of his experience in close doorhandle-to doorhandle racing. Unfortunately there are some drivers who are not awake, and may execute moves that my man wont anticipate, or are contrary to what is the norm, and there could be a 'coming together'! I realize that this situation is not the norm, but it can, and does happen.......the AMCO Mini.

Could I just at this point say thank you for your detailed and interesting profile. I knew when I was reading your post, about No 80 on the previous page, that I was reading about someone who knew the business of Classic racing very well. I must have had my head in the sand, because I could not recall your name. I'm sure my Man, mentioned above will be chastising me for being so thick when he recovers from his first ST drive!!!

[Dave Silcock]

I am unable to come to terms with the assumption that a non historic car is more likely to cause damage to a fellow competitors car. In my case I have spent the last 12 years building it and the paint alone cost 10000 dollars, why would I wish to drive in close proximity to a car, whilst being "historic", is probably not as well presented as mine. Indeed it probably could'nt be given it has been raced by various owners who back in the day cared not one iota about its history or originality. You know the boxed guards on Mustangs the engine set back ect ect. and in fact it is going to cost the same to repair a "new" car as it is the "historic". As I have already stated on this forum I drive cars not history and would not pay anymore for a car with a so called history than it would cost me to build the same thing afresh.

[screwdriver]

Once again, I totally agree with Dave's post. There are replicas around that cost the owners far, far more than the 'genuine' historics and I have never bought into the argument that they should be banned.

Why should we be denied the spectacle of a GT40, Cobra, C-Type, D-Type Jag running, even if they are replicas?

As for AMCO's comment - having been cleanly overtaken by said number one driver, it is no problem. In any handicap race, ALL drivers other than the scratch guy will be watching their mirrors - and if they don't, then a polite word to the series convenor usually results in a better awareness, to the mutual satisfaction of all concerned, but occasional panel damage is inevitable on a track and often through no fault of the driver.

I remember well Chris Watson's TR5 (not with Chris at the wheel) upending itself at the esses at Pukekohe, when the propshaft let go and another TR6 (what is it with Triumphs?) when a stub axle failed and a following car smacked into the concrete avoiding the car that was spinning on its roof at the 'mountain'.

That is motor racing and accidents will happen.

If the drivers vote to allow a replica into a series, then all is well. There are so many 'fake' Lotus Cortinas, Mini Cooper 'S' and Capri Perana's around anyway, I don't know what the fuss is about, as any Appendix K or Schedule K cars can run if they wish, but attempts to run them as a specific class in NZ have generally failed, as the performances vary so much from make to make anyway.