Widebody S4 Lotus Seven

[AMCO72]

Paul, your car doesn't look too bad. Maybe some seat covering and a bit of carpet, and she would be ready to shoot the breeze. What state is the engine in if it hasn't been run for a few years? I think I would be tempted to have some fun in it. Might be a long time before the house is paid off!!!!!!!

[Paul Wilkinson]

The engine was rebuilt just before it was parked about 15 years ago but who knows what sort of state it's in? At the very least it will need a new water-pump and the head and sump will need to be popped off for a look-see. I imagine that the head will need a bit of attention eg. valve-springs. The suspension needs new bushes and a quick paint, who knows what the state the shocks are in after these years - there is a fine layer of surface rust on them as well as the rest of the suspension components. I imagine the wheel bearings will need attention too, the braking system and clutch definately will.

It has fallen off the registration system and because of the mods will now need to be certified as well. It needs a couple of new seats and also a few hours with an auto-electrician. All in all, it's not huge money but it's all hands to the pump right now. Once we have found a new house I'll know what I can and can't do....

[Binzy1]

Hi John,

What is the context of the CAMS section? Is it to do with the eligibility of Steele Bros Lotus S4's for Group D Production Sports in the late 70's - early 80's?

CCC

It was probably because CAMS knew that the later Steele cars had the 907 engine, wasn't exactly the best design for a race engine, so made the rule to avoid oil spills and associated bits left lying on the track from them when went 'bang' from being thrashed.
I feel safe saying this as have read plenty about 907’s as have one in my Steeles/Bainbridge '7' (daren't try getting away with calling it a Lotus now given the discussion here - lol).
Lindsay

[Jan]

Hi All,

It looks to me that with the exception of Mike I am the only person in this forums thread who resides outside NZ. Therefore I am not wearing the same “rose tinted spectacles” as you are!

However click on the following link and you can see that not all your citizens agrees with your statements in this thread: http://www.lotus7.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1537

I also believe that your conduct and behavior is appalling to somebody who just tries to piece the authentic Lotus 7 history together. Nobody has actually assisted him in his inquiry regarding Steel Bros Seven production numbers, chassis numbers, widebody models and so on.

It seems it is paramount to most of you to protect local interest instead of getting the authentic Steel Bros Lotus Seven history out whatever that may be. One thing is for sure threatening somebody with legal actions instead of helping them are not going to change anything.

I am not saying that Mike could not have worded his sentences differently here but then again so could Trevor. Also I do not know Mikes English language skills (no offence Mike) but this should be a forum that accepts anybody who makes a contribution as long as the tone is reasonably sober. The only treats I have seen here are the ones Trevor made.

I believe that this discussion is just going to continue in a non productive manner so I am retiring from this thread for good now. So “over and out”

Cheers,

John

[Oldfart]

John, thanks for that link.
I find it interesting that it mentions in a number of places the agreement with Lotus/Steeles as being legit. Certainly the later cars were a different kettle of fish, I don't think anyone has shown any issue with this, or perhaps I misread this. I guess we will never know.
As I previously said, proving this either way now, 35 years later would be nigh on impossible.
Without rancour, what was the CAMS issue?
Rose coloured specs, actually I have always abhorred the S4!

[Binzy1]

However click on the following link and you can see that not all your citizens agrees with your statements in this thread: http://www.lotus7.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1537

Ha - history repeats!
That's Paul & I, from this Forum, having a discussion (debate?) on that Forum about bits & pieces of information that we had gleaned around the Lotus/Steeles etc history within NZ. We are a small & proud country and this was an interesting time in NZ motoring history and I guess keen to protect the reputation whilst glean more information as to our cars.
Lindsay

[Paul Wilkinson]

Hi John,

It's a shame you won't be reading this as you've retired from this thread. However, I have given Mike a link to details of the Steel Brothers employee most responsible for brokering the deal between Steel Brothers and Lotus. I have also offered to forward his details to someone who has all the chassis number information he was asking for. It is up to Mike to then take his investigations forward. He has demanded that we provide evidence we obviously don't have so we have furnished him with a contact that will be able to help.
Re-reading my posts I don't think my behaviour has been appalling at all, my spelling and grammar certainly but my behaviour, no. I have remained polite and have tried to stay 'on-message'. I've tried to lighten the tone at times. I have defended my position factually and have only politely 'called Mike out' on some of his demands and comments. Trevor may have come on strong but some of Mikes comments were strong also.
Have a quick re-read of the Lotus forum thread you have pointed us to. Nothing contradicts what I have said. I am actually 'Gollum' on that thread and it is about the company 'Bainbridge' and the legal trouble they got into when they bought the S4 jigs and moulds off Steel Brothers and then tried to use the Lotus name, which they had no right to. This was because while Steel Brothers had an agreement to use the Lotus name it wasn't assignable.
To be blunt (yet hopefully polite) you seem to have only read half of the 'argument' or have come to it with a pre-conceived outcome. Mikes comment were inflammatory and he got some inflammatory ones back. He also got leads and contacts that should help him. If he (or you) cannot live with people reacting to emotive comments that you make then either stop making them or stop posting.

Cheers,

Paul

[Paul Wilkinson]

Ha - history repeats!
That's Paul & I, from this Forum, having a discussion (debate?) on that Forum about bits & pieces of information that we had gleaned around the Lotus/Steeles etc history within NZ. We are a small & proud country and this was an interesting time in NZ motoring history and I guess keen to protect the reputation whilst glean more information as to our cars.
Lindsay

Yep, Lindsay and I had to go outside to sort that one out! We've agreed that we owe each other a beer....

[cossie]

Hi All,

John, you have nailed this subject right on. I am glad that someone can see through what really is going on here. I do understand why you have elected to stop writing here; it is not worth the aggravation of being threatened to be sued. However I believe that you (in your haste?) generalized a little bit. Paul Wilkinson has been very helpful.

It is apparent that for some New Zealanders like the Trevors, it is more important to protect national interest than getting the actual documented facts (whatever they may be) out. However following is taken from Lotus Club NZ:

“they (Lotus) weren't thrilled that Steele’s had been using good old Kiwi ingenuity to keep building as ‘Lotus’ badge way beyond”

"The cars that are not strictly legit as far as I know are the ones where Steel Bros started arsing about with the body shape/dimensions and engines etc. They happily slapped Lotus chassis plates on them”

I HAVE NOT written the above mentioned Trevor, so no reason to bring the “artillery” out this time. However sometimes there is no smoke without fire. This doesn’t actually mean anything, ooh for heaven sake no

An overprotective mother who always claims that her teenage son is an angel even though the Police just took him stealing. I am not comparing anything here OOOH no

To Trevor the "self-proclaimed judge and executor" in this forum. I have now edited my contribution so it now has absolutely no meaning to anybody. A certain manufacture is now called “Company X”. A certain human interfaced device on wheels is now called “Company X 7”. A certain country of the Trevors is now called “A country close to Australia”. I sincerely hope that this cannot offend anyone now.

All I initially wanted was “a good yarn” about the “Company X 7”, especially how many made, VIN numbers, Super 907 Etc. It has never been my intention to offend, insult or slander anybody. I don’t even know “Company X” so I have no opinion about them. Somebody wrote that they paid their bills on time. That has absolutely nothing to do with this issue and honestly I politely don’t care.

Finally it was Trevor who started the threats against me as John so correctly has observed. I am sorry if some people from “A country close to Australia” can’t see that. Trevor how much research have you done on the Lotus 7? You are good at making treats (and demands) but apparently nothing else. I have no respect for people like you.

So have a nice life because I am also signing off now. I am doing this Lotus 7 research in my spare time and I have now wasted enough time on – actually almost nothing useful! Researching history supposes to be fun and entertaining, meeting nice people Etc. Not the harassment and aggravation I predominately got here. John and Paul, I did not mean you. You two guys have been helpful and constructive.

Somebody once said: “Why sore with turkeys when you can fly with eagles” so I will do just that.

This is the first time I have been threatened in a forum on the Internet.

John, by the way, what the heck is cams? Please drop me a PM.

Best Whishes,

Mike

[Neville Milne]

What an odd series of exchanges this has been.
In those days, many NZ based manufacturers had agreements with over-seas suppliers of technology or materials; the company I represented had such agreements with the Associated Engineering group, in the UK and the Cleveland Graphite Bronze Co, in the US., to name just two.
In neither case were 'letters' or correspondence retained after the period required by the Companies Office...7 years, as I recall.
At that time those letters had no special significance, certainly none that was historical and the space required to store company records, ad-infinitum, would have been considerable. I am sure there was a similar requirement in other countries, including the UK.
For those very practical and legitimate reasons, I would be VERY surprised if any commercial correspondence still existed between Chapman and Steel Brothers, or Chapman and anyone else for that matter........such correspondence would be a very odd exception to what was then, the way in which business was conducted.
Therefore one is left to consider each company and each company's commercial reputation, in it's entirety. Having had direct knowledge of Steel Bros, I CAN assert that they were solvent; adhered to whatever agreements were made with the company I was employed by; and had a reputation of producing well engineered and well made products. I have never had direct commercial dealings with Lotus, apart from having the misfortune to own an early Mk1 Lotus Cortina.
Neville Milne

[AMCO72]

Do you know that every time I sat down at my computer to check on the latest casualty from 'The Gun-fight at the Steelbros Corral', I fully expected our friend in the UK, New Zealand's foremost motoring historian no less, to wade in with the AK47, and blow everyone away. When the dust had settled, he would give his usual well measured, well researched reply, and the survivors of the shootout would emerge from behind water troughs and bars to fight another day. But sadly, no. I think I shall just retire to the bar myself and see if I can join a game of cards, with my back to the wall of course!!!!!

[Carlo]

Do you know that every time I sat down at my computer to check on the latest casualty from 'The Gun-fight at the Steelbros Corral', I fully expected our friend in the UK, New Zealand's foremost motoring historian no less, to wade in with the AK47, and blow everyone away. When the dust had settled, he would give his usual well measured, well researched reply, and the survivors of the shootout would emerge from behind water troughs and bars to fight another day. But sadly, no. I think I shall just retire to the bar myself and see if I can join a game of cards, with my back to the wall of course!!!!!

Care if I join you for a quiet Speights and a hand or two ?

[AMCO72]

Carlo....be my guest.

[Oldfart]

I just wish I had the sanity to not have posted what I thought was a reasoned, and intending to moderate reply! Don't like Speights, can I have a Beam?

[AMCO72]

Yep, drinks are on the house....Pauls new house. I think we all deserve one [or two] after that hammering. I was checking the site at 2am in the morning, to see the latest casualty, after I had pointed Percy at the Porcelain!!!!!!

[Trevor Sheffield]

Hi All,

John, you have nailed this subject right on. I am glad that someone can see through what really is going on here. I do understand why you have elected to stop writing here; it is not worth the aggravation of being threatened to be sued. However I believe that you (in your haste?) generalized a little bit. Paul Wilkinson has been very helpful.

It is apparent that for some New Zealanders like the Trevors, it is more important to protect national interest than getting the actual documented facts (whatever they may be) out. However following is taken from Lotus Club NZ:

“they (Lotus) weren't thrilled that Steele’s had been using good old Kiwi ingenuity to keep building as ‘Lotus’ badge way beyond”

"The cars that are not strictly legit as far as I know are the ones where Steel Bros started arsing about with the body shape/dimensions and engines etc. They happily slapped Lotus chassis plates on them”

I HAVE NOT written the above mentioned Trevor, so no reason to bring the “artillery” out this time. However sometimes there is no smoke without fire. This doesn’t actually mean anything, ooh for heaven sake no

An overprotective mother who always claims that her teenage son is an angel even though the Police just took him stealing. I am not comparing anything here OOOH no

To Trevor the "self-proclaimed judge and executor" in this forum. I have now edited my contribution so it now has absolutely no meaning to anybody. A certain manufacture is now called “Company X”. A certain human interfaced device on wheels is now called “Company X 7”. A certain country of the Trevors is now called “A country close to Australia”. I sincerely hope that this cannot offend anyone now.

All I initially wanted was “a good yarn” about the “Company X 7”, especially how many made, VIN numbers, Super 907 Etc. It has never been my intention to offend, insult or slander anybody. I don’t even know “Company X” so I have no opinion about them. Somebody wrote that they paid their bills on time. That has absolutely nothing to do with this issue and honestly I politely don’t care.

Finally it was Trevor who started the threats against me as John so correctly has observed. I am sorry if some people from “A country close to Australia” can’t see that. Trevor how much research have you done on the Lotus 7? You are good at making treats (and demands) but apparently nothing else. I have no respect for people like you.

So have a nice life because I am also signing off now. I am doing this Lotus 7 research in my spare time and I have now wasted enough time on – actually almost nothing useful! Researching history supposes to be fun and entertaining, meeting nice people Etc. Not the harassment and aggravation I predominately got here. John and Paul, I did not mean you. You two guys have been helpful and constructive.

Somebody once said: “Why sore with turkeys when you can fly with eagles” so I will do just that.

This is the first time I have been threatened in a forum on the Internet.

John, by the way, what the heck is cams? Please drop me a PM.

Best Whishes,

Mike

I apologise to those who by now must regard the points now being made as trivial, but as my name is being continually and repeatedly publicly denigrated by a hidden non identity, I must execute a right of reply.

(1) Yes, regardless of their nationality, I find it important to protect others and organisations against incorrect derogatory allegations.

(2) It was stated by way of an insult in post #74 ---”They (Steels Bros.) used the Lotus name on their cars but that was never approved by Lotus”, i.e. an absolute, unmitigated statement of fact without qualification and based on hearsay.

(3) I call on readers to please carefully examine my initial post #81 in full, whereby I was carefully courteous and did not in any way attack the tender footed “ ‘cossie’ Mike”, or threaten litigation as has been continually claimed. I posted as follows:-

“You are stating that Steel Bros. were operating illegally. Provide proof or desist from distributing slander, you could be judged liable.” i.e. I recorded no more than a robust clear statement and request, together with clear advice suggesting caution. N.B. I did not state “otherwise I will have you judged liable", or make any threatening inference as is here being continually, stupidly alleged.

(4) I also ask readers to note the incessant sarcasm and the tone of the replies directed towards me and in particular this gem. “Put your word where your mouth is my friend, and if you are right and I am wrong – I will eat my words and write here that I was wrong.” Please refer post #85, i.e. my tempered reply to this nastiness,

(5) Mike ---? has not desisted and continues to brow beat with concerted efforts, to prove that his statements which damage the good will of Steele Bros. remain accepted as correct. He obstinately continues with this diatribe, now quoting, presumably as absolute evidence, off the cuff comments by Lotus Club N.Z. stating. “They (Steele Bros.) happily slapped Lotus plates on them.”

(6) A direct and personal attack, again including ego driven ongoing sarcasm, has now been made against me as follows:-

”I HAVE NOT written the above mentioned Trevor, so no reason to bring the “artillery” out this time. However sometimes there is no smoke without fire. This doesn’t actually mean anything, ooh for heaven sake no

An overprotective mother who always claims that her teenage son is an angel even though the Police just took him stealing. I am not comparing anything here OOOH no

To Trevor the "self-proclaimed judge and executor" in this forum. I have now edited my contribution so it now has absolutely no meaning to anybody. A certain manufacture is now called “Company X”. A certain human interfaced device on wheels is now called “Company X 7”. A certain country of the Trevors is now called “A country close to Australia”. I sincerely hope that this cannot offend anyone now.”

(7) It is proclaimed that evidence has now cunningly been removed, notably without honestly completing the reasons why detail by way of disclosure. In spite of this, evidence remains clearly reproduced throughout the thread, whereby the name of Steele Bros. has been placed in jeopardy.

Obviously no apology is forthcoming. The required testicles and intestinal fortitude being sadly lacking. However let it be clear that, in spite of of a great deal of bovine manure excreted from a confirmed steer in hiding, Steele Bros. are reputable and remain innocent.

Sincerely, Trevor.

Sorely proclaimed, "Threatening, demanding, self-proclaimed judge and executor" but even so, is happy to soar with kiwi turkeys.

[Binzy1]

As was once proclaimed (although I'm substituting Weasels with Turkeys) - "Eagles may soar but Turkeys don't get sucked in to jet engines!!!!!!".........

[Paul Wilkinson]

Yep, drinks are on the house....Pauls new house. I think we all deserve one [or two] after that hammering. I was checking the site at 2am in the morning, to see the latest casualty, after I had pointed Percy at the Porcelain!!!!!!

As soon as I find a new house everyone is welcome for a few drinks! Anyone expert on recommissioning Lotus Twincams doubly so.....

[Jan]

“A certain human interfaced device on wheels is now called “Company X 7”. Ha-ha that’s a good one Mike.

Mike, I have worked for many years as a mechanical engineer in NZ and I have never experienced the low level of conduct from NZ citizens as you have experienced here. I don’t know if you have been to NZ but the majority of New Zealanders are actually well educated and very nice people. Most of them in this forum appear not to be in these categories.

Trevor, Neither you or anybody else in this thread have proved anything about your Seven, so why do you keep harassing Mike and threatening him? And the manure thing! You and your mob are the “big slingers” here! Immaturity I may say and how old are you?

Mike, Trevor just doesn’t get it. Apparently he is a man who has nothing better to do than harass people and currently you are his victim joined by some people who are not representing the educated New Zealanders I know.

“Oldfart”, Mike, C.A.M.S. stand for Confederation of Australian Motor Sport and it is very respected (also in NZ), but apparently not according to the “mob” here!! Click on this link for more info: http://www.cams.com.au/Sport/Historics/Logbooks_and_COD/Specification_Sheets/~/media/Files/Sport/Historics/Historics/Group%20S/Lotus%207%20%20Super%207%20%20S4%20%20Sc.ashx

Paul, Mike is right. I generalized here, and I apologize to you. I can see that you are one of few who actually has assisted Mike here.

AMCO72, you are absolutely right, you just got it the wrong way around. It is Mike (who I still don’t know!) and I who are in the bar when you “Kiwi mob” come in with your AK 47’s and start shooting in order to preserve national interest. That’s the key problem here. It is good to be country proud but when that comes in the way of exposing the correct history (whatever that is) it is wrong. Threatening Mike to silence just because he want to get the history correct in actual “blackmail” isn’t it Trevor?

Finally if anybody should give an apology here, it should be you Trevor. Read back to this “mother of all treads” and you will see Trevor that you actually started your treats in your #81. Before that there had been no treats about legal actions and slander. You started this and may I say, you have not contributed with one shred of evidence to justify harassing or threatening other people. Further you have never answered Mikes question: “Trevor how much research have you done on the Lotus 7?”

So Trevor when you immaturely wrote: “The required testicles and intestinal fortitude being sadly lacking. However let it be clear that, in spite of of a great deal of bovine manure excreted from a confirmed steer in hiding”, you are actually talking about yourself.

Mike, believe me, don’t get the wrong impression of New Zealand because the majority of New Zealanders are nice people, you were just very very unlucky here.

Mike, I have sent you a PM.

Cheers,

John

[Rod Grimwood]

First off I know bugger all about the Lotus Legacy (except if it was a Cortina give it to me) and a little F1/single seater history.

Mike, sorry but I do feel you started throwing it and as you should know by now, it can be thrown back. I also feel the first character assasination did not come from this side of the globe. And another point ! we may be close to Australia in your mind (do you think that was diplomatic, or outright shit stirring), but this country has supplied some of the best mechanics and designers in most motorsport catagories over the years world wide, and still do. It is a pity that this has turned personal, and I feel that the hatchet should be buried as things may be "said/written" that do not need to be.

I have heard of most names (NZ) mentioned in this thread over the years and hold them in regard as intelligent and knowledgable motorsport people.

Cheers

PS John, Must be something about Officialdom and Sports Sedans, as we all parked ours up back in mid 90s because "the brick wall"