The Roaring Season

by **Roger Dowding** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:48 pm

A lot of the RA Vanguard History is here on thread #1038.

Steve Holmes - should the two threads be merged ??.

Nordiff
Stu Buchanan
David McKinney [ RIP David ]
all contributed to the thread.

As mentioned there is an extensive article on RA cars in the booklet ;
" New Zealand Classic Car - Limited Edition Collector' series #5 ".

Worth a read.

by **stubuchanan** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:32 am

Thanks for the Saltwater Creek info, Carlo. Several years ago I read in a book about the Aerial Topdressing industry in NZ that there had been an airfield at Saltwater Ck - closed about 1960 or so. I wondered if this might have been the motor racing venue but drew a blank on all inquiries. Nice to know I guessed right after all! One of quite a few grass-track airfield venues up and down the country at the time.

Nodiff - In the same NZ Classic Car story that mentioned the Les Moore modifications there is a post-accident photo of the rear of the car which doesn't look significantly different to a Ralph Watson photo from 1953. The R.H. trailing link or wishbone may have been damaged, and the tubular frame the shocks are attached to is different but looks as if they would have had exactly the same geometry. Fascinating stuff!

Stu

by **Nodiff** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:33 am

stubuchanan wrote:
"He (Moore) was a speedway man and his idea of getting around bends was about hanging it out on the corners, whereas Hec's suspension wouldn't do that.... so it tucked a wheel under and somersaulted, killing Les.
Stu

Thanks for you input Stu, I too had heard Jacks theory about the suspension mods, however the low pivot configuration that Hec employed doesn't lend itself to "Tucking a wheel under" The car has that same arrangement now and that characteristic is not evident. It does however have a decided tendency to rear wheel bump steer. Hard rear suspension does tend to overcome this but with the rear end softened up I hazard to guess just where the steering may tend to go. In long discussions with Ralph Watson, while I was rebuilding the rear end, I mentioned to him the potential to bump steer, he believed that the car always had this tendency, given the suspension pick-up points (of what is effectively a wishbone), being on different planes. I have letter from him with typical Ralph Watson diagrams and calculations attesting to this tendency. His suggestion was to keep it hard with minimum deflection. What Les Moore may have done to change the arrangement can only be guessed at. Certainly the wheel tucking effect would have involved serious re-engineering

by **Carlo** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:16 pm

stubuchanan wrote:Another point re RA Vanguard : story, or just urban legend, that Les Moore altered the rear suspension in some way which could have been a factor in his fatal crash at Saltwater Creek, Timaru. Was this a grass, sand, or loose surfaced track? I also believe there used to be an airfield at Saltwater Creek in the '50's.

Stu Buchanan

As an aside to the RA story, Saltwater Creek at the southern end of Timaru was the origonal airport and was used for racing once the new airport at levels was constructed. The origonal airport building upon whos steps Sir kingsford Smith was welcolmed when he first flew into the district then became the South Canterbury Car Clubs clubrooms and subsequently was transported out to Timaru Motor Raceway in 1967 when the race circuit was becoming established where it served for many years as the clubrooms and race control building only recently being demolished to make way for the current control tower block. During the process of transportation I was just one of the many who walked most of the route armed with very long Manuka stakes that were used to lift power and telephone lines above the roof height of the building along the way.

by **David McKinney** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:43 am

Even if there's no guarantee of their reliability

by **Steve Holmes** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:53 am

David McKinney wrote:I think the two guys on the right are probably just spectators. The guy next to them is how I remember Jack Brewer, and it may be Les Moore on the far left

Amazing!

by **Nodiff** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:30 am

David McKinney wrote:I think the two guys on the right are probably just spectators. The guy next to them is how I remember Jack Brewer, and it may be Les Moore on the far left

Thanks David, good that we have access to your "memory banks"

by **David McKinney** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:22 pm

I think the two guys on the right are probably just spectators. The guy next to them is how I remember Jack Brewer, and it may be Les Moore on the far left

by **stubuchanan** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:51 am

Nodiff wrote:Thanks Steve, an excellent photo, I do have a copy ion my collection, it would have been in the Les Moore days, but I don't know the identity of the 4 people. Wouldn't I just love that Bedford truck in the background, make a great tow wagon

Don't know who the 2 "suits" are on the right of the picture, but the 2 on the left could well be Brewer and Hec Green(who went in for very severe 'short back' and sides haircuts). Green built his own wire wheels for the later RA Special/RA 5/twincam whatever, perhaps he made these too.

I presume you have read the story of Hec Green's cars in NZ Classic Car magazine by Penn McKay (Sept-Oct-Nov1998). He had the advantage of talking to Hec Green and also Brewer, who commented that Les Moore had altered the rear suspension to a more conventional system. "He (Moore) was a speedway man and his idea of getting around bends was about hanging it out on the corners, whereas Hec's suspension wouldn't do that.... so it tucked a wheel under and somersaulted, killing Les.

For those interested in the RA cars, there is also a Scott Thompson article in "Beaded Wheels" April/May 1998, and Ralph Watson's comments in "Ralph Watson - Special Engineer" which also appeared earlier in "Sports Car Talk - Special Edition #2 .

Stu

by **Nodiff** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:02 am

Steve Holmes wrote:I found this over in another thread:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]17737[/ATTACH]

Thanks Steve, an excellent photo, I do have a copy ion my collection, it would have been in the Les Moore days, but I don't know the identity of the 4 people. Wouldn't I just love that Bedford truck in the background, make a great tow wagon

by **Steve Holmes** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:22 pm

I found this over in another thread:

by **Powder** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:41 am

David McKinney wrote:The RA Vanguard was No.12 at Wigram in 1952 but also 1953. However, photos from the latter year's race show it with the 12-spoke wheels, so I can't see it not being 1952

Also, the Chch Press report on the 1952 Wigram race says "In the fourteenth lap Green had the misfortune of losing four of the six spokes of his left-hand rear wheel, and he withdrew from the race".

by **David McKinney** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:26 am

Nodiff wrote:Here is another Wigram photo, which shows the car on 6 spoke wheels, plus windscreen and radiator grill. I have always thought that this was 1952, though I would love to have someone confirm, or correct me.[ATTACH=CONFIG]17632[/ATTACH]

The RA Vanguard was No.12 at Wigram in 1952 but also 1953. However, photos from the latter year's race show it with the 12-spoke wheels, so I can't see it not being 1952

And no doubt about it being Wigram, on the right-hand kink after the Hairpin. In 1954 the Hairpin was omitted, and the faster corner seen in the background used instead

by **Steve Holmes** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:51 pm

What an amazing thread this is! Thanks Richard for starting this. That first photo with the wet paint sign is priceless!

by **Nodiff** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:42 pm

[quote="Powder"]

I believe that was probably the "transitional" for want of a better name car that was built after mine to develop the "Vanguard Special" twin cam car. IT had genuine rubber band suspension (stationers rubber bands) The final car (owned by Errol Norris in Christchurch) has the VW front end.

by **Nodiff** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:31 pm

Thanks Nigel for the great pics from Roycroft.

Here is another Wigram photo, which shows the car on 6 spoke wheels, plus windscreen and radiator grill. I have always thought that this was 1952, though I would love to have someone confirm, or correct me.

by **Nodiff** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:10 pm

To add even further confusion the "Wet Paint" photo shows totally different wheel type, certainly not the fabricated spoke type that gave so much trouble first with 6 spokes and later with 12.

Thanks Stu for your input.....Can we assume that in those days unlike today, all trailers were legal?..... And yes Jack Brewer told me that Les Moore had the rear suspension changed in some way, just what those changes were I dont know.

by **stubuchanan** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:30 am

Nodiff wrote:[ATTACH=CONFIG]17626[/ATTACH]

Anyone know what year this is?, obviously Wigram,

Not really any help, but it can't be any later than 1951 - number plate on the trailer in the background is from the 1946-1951 series, dark numbers on a light background (a sort of putty colour if memory from primary school days is correct). Plates changed in June or Sept 1951.

Another point re RA Vanguard : story, or just urban legend, that Les Moore altered the rear suspension in some way which could have been a factor in his fatal crash at Saltwater Creek, Timaru. Was this a grass, sand, or loose surfaced track? I also believe there used to be an airfield at Saltwater Creek in the '50's.

Stu Buchanan

by **David McKinney** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:21 am

Which seems to indicate the "wet paint" photo was early in practice - or maybe they did a bit a touching up for some reason

Re the wheels: photos of Geoff Mardon racing the car in 1958 show it still on original (or at least original-type) wheels. First racing appearance of wires seems to have been with Les Moore in 1960

Moore's fatal accident in the car was at the Saltwater Creek track, Timaru, on Labour Weekend the same year

by **Powder** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:38 am

Nodiff wrote:Anyone know what year this is?, obviously Wigram,

In the programme for Wigram 1950, Car No.12 was the De Soto Special of F.Zambuka.

The entry list for the 1951 Wigram race has the R.A. Vanguard as No.12. (and the same for 1952 & 53)
Also in 1951 Car No.13 was the Wolseley Special, 1604cc, which might match the pit banner to the left of the photo.

The 1953 programme and press report both refer to the car as being red, instead of orange (1951 & 52 programmes) so perhaps George Begg gave them a new tin of paint.

In 1954 Hec Green was entered in a car just called the R.A. which I think was a different car to the R.A. Vanguard, right? Apparently it caught fire.

I'm happy to scan everything I have relating to your car and email it to you if you like. Send me a PM.

The Roaring Season

RA Vanguard

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RA Vanguard - two stories thread #1038 and thread #2521 - .

Saltwater Creek,( Carlo) - and Les Moore(?) Modifications (Nodiff)

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