Any chance of help with a problem?

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Expand view Topic review: Any chance of help with a problem?

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by khyndart in CA » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:16 pm

Kwaussie wrote:What post number was that Ray - I have looked back but can't see it on an earlier page. Cheers


Kwaussie,
This was Ray's input on # 12 post.
"Allen points out that there were no 'T55' or 'T58' designations...
Firstly, as background, it's important to remember that the term "T58" was not used at the time. Cooper only invented their "T" number system in 1963, so the T58 was just the V8 Climax prototype to reporters in 1961 and 1962. He also says this of the Bowmaker-owned F1/2/61:

[I]One clue may be that Parnell had a spare Cooper for the 1963 'Tasman' races two months later. It's not obvious what that was, as Parnell had sold or wrecked all three cars they had taken out to the antipodes in 1962 (F1-1-61 to South Africa. F1-2-61 to Lex Davison and F1-4-61 wrecked by Salvadori)[/I].
Could it be they took the T58 as their spare and that was the car raced by Jim Palmer? Photographs of Palmer's would be really useful. So that car was already with Davison in '62."

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Ray Bell » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:03 pm

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/208541-the-cooper-climax-t58/#entry8214649

And it's not there ether... I must have just taken what was needed from Allen's site and used that here.

Of course F1/2/61 is nothing to do with this discussion. Even if that was the chassis number recorded for the car we are talking about!

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Kwaussie » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:39 pm

Ray Bell wrote:Sorry, that must have been on the other thread..


Can you please tell us about " the other thread" or are we not privy to a separate little chat?

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Kwaussie » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:23 pm

Ray Bell wrote:Sorry, that must have been on the other thread...

However, on this one we certainly had the discussion about F1/2/61 having been sold to Lex Davison in early 1962 and subsequently crashed, moving on to Don Fraser for some years.


Yes maybe but nothing to do with the Bowmaker car that you say we are talking about on this thread .

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Ray Bell » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:11 pm

Sorry, that must have been on the other thread...

However, on this one we certainly had the discussion about F1/2/61 having been sold to Lex Davison in early 1962 and subsequently crashed, moving on to Don Fraser for some years.

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Kwaussie » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:57 am

Ray Bell wrote:Did that car go to NZ twice?

According to Allen's site all three 1962 Bowmaker Coopers used in NZ and Australia were crashed or sold. That's quoted on an earlier page of this thread.


What post number was that Ray - I have looked back but can't see it on an earlier page. Cheers

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Kwaussie » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:13 am

From notes -- Cooper FPF 2495cc F1/2/61 John Surtees NZ 1962
-- Cooper FPF 2707cc F1/2/61 Bowmaker/JP NZ 1963

It may have stayed in NZ during 1962 and they fitted a spare 2.7 for 1963?

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Ray Bell » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:46 am

Did that car go to NZ twice?

According to Allen's site all three 1962 Bowmaker Coopers used in NZ and Australia were crashed or sold. That's quoted on an earlier page of this thread.

The team toured in '63 with two Lolas fitted out with 2.7-litre engines and the car Palmer used was their spare. It never remained in Australia.

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Kwaussie » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:03 am

Ray Bell wrote:The Bowmaker car, that's what this thread's all been about...


So what happened to this heavy 2.7 T53/55 that came to New Zealand twice then to Australia with Jim Palmer. Did the car return to NZ, remain in OZ or was it shipped back to GB after the Australian series.

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Ray Bell » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:19 pm

The Bowmaker car, that's what this thread's all been about...

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Michael Clark » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:43 pm

Allen, when you refer to "Palmer's car" - are you referring to the Bowmaker 'T55' he had use of in the pre-Tasman series of '63, or the car that they subsequently purchased - i.e. the 'T53' that carried a T45 chassis plate?

Jim recalls them as being similar cars but where the 55 "felt a heavier car"

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Allen Brown » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:00 pm

I am most grateful to Ray and everyone for trying to solve this long-standing problem. The photographs certainly suggest that Palmer's car was a standard(ish) Lowline "T53", not the "Slimline" design of the "T58".

As to which T53 he had, I think that will be very difficult to ascertain. Parnell's team acquired three production T53s for 1961 but almost immediately were racing four of them, and it looks to me that they may have made up a fifth at some point. Parnell later did the same with Lotus 21s and Lotus 24s, so the extra cars should not be a surprise. I have used the identity "P2" for the Palmer car. To reiterate my justification for this:

The name 'P2' is given here to the fourth standard T53 used by Yeoman-Credit in 1961. As well as the three cars that appear in Cooper records (F1-1-61, F1-2-61 and F1-4-61), they produced a streamliner known as "VR", one extra standard car and later a T56-based car. When the T56-based car appeared at Monza, Denis Jenkinson noted that this brought their team strength to six, two F1s, two ICs and now two specials. The Formula 1 Register developed the notation 'P1', 'P2', to denote extra cars built by the Parnell team and their notation is used for "VR" ['P1'] and the extra standard car ['P2'].


As Ray so wisely says, "The things we don't know."

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Ray Bell » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:07 am

Height may be the same, but the shape is different on most...

And the fuel fillers might have originally hidden under bodywork and became exposed when holes were cut. The things we don't know.

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Kwaussie » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:49 am

Ray Bell wrote:Sorry to take so long to reply, Ken...

Photos of the T58 show no signs of a filler cap on the side at all. Though the rollover bar seems similar to the one on the car Palmer drove in early '63.

The lack of filler cap on that side is maybe conclusive. The rollover bar height is similar to a few Coopers of that era, need more proof that it is the same as T58

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Ray Bell » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:20 am

Originally posted by khybndart in CA
Ray,
Do you think the filler is much different than what John Surtees has on his Cooper at Ardmore Jan. 1962?


Sorry to take so long to reply, Ken...

Photos of the T58 show no signs of a filler cap on the side at all. Though the rollover bar seems similar to the one on the car Palmer drove in early '63.

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by John McKechnie » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:47 pm

khyndart in CA wrote:November 1963.
Renwick Race.
Jim Palmer in ex Hyslop Cooper-Climax with his favorite number 41
[ATTACH=CONFIG]49039[/ATTACH]
(Euan Sarginson photo )


Question- Jim Palmer favourite number was 41 and he put it on his Porsche 911 for the 1971 season, would that be why Coppins changed his number from 41 ( 1970 season) to 141 (1971 season) ?
John Riley then went from 141 to 222

See #60 for these 2 cars together.

#60
http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?1885-Motor-Racing-pics-my-early-years-1964-71-Pukekohe-Racetrack-by-Roger-Dowdingl/page3&highlight=coppins

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by khyndart in CA » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:43 pm

Ray,
Do you think the filler is much different than what John Surtees has on his Cooper at Ardmore Jan. 1962 ?
1962 Ardmore - Copy.jpg

Jan. 1962.

Palmer # 6 -.. Copy.jpg

Jim Palmer. Feb. 1963.

This is a clearer view of the fuel filler when the Cooper T 53 was first tested by John Surtees under the watchful eye of Reg Parnell (on the left) at Goodwood in 1961.
1961. Cooper T53. Surtees at Goodwood..jpg





(Ken H )
Attachments
Palmer # 6 - Copy.jpg

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Ray Bell » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:28 pm

Thanks for the pics, Ken...

Funnily enough, the roll bar looks right. But the fuel filler doesn't!

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by khyndart in CA » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:30 am

November 1963.
Renwick Race.
Jim Palmer in ex Hyslop Cooper-Climax with his favorite number 41
Jim Palmer at Renwick.jpg

(Euan Sarginson photo )

Re: Any chance of help with a problem?

by Terry S » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:45 am

khyndart in CA wrote:Ray,
These may not be of much use but I took these off the 1963 Australian GP at the "Farm" Youtube movie showing Jim Palmer coming around in car # 12. Cooper # ??
[ATTACH=CONFIG]49027[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]49028[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]49031[/ATTACH]


Jim was much happier driving this Cooper the following season.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]49030[/ATTACH]
(March 1964 Hawkes Bay Photo News photo)


( Ken H)


Interesting article here on Jim Palmer

I particularly love the hay bales used to narrow the Renwick street circuit in the opening photo

https://primotipo.com/2018/01/02/renwick-50-and-jim-palmer-new-zealand-1965/

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