The Roaring Season

Look forward to learning more about your new project Mike! I completely understand your reasons for stepping away from the Z build. Even if well financed, it can get a bit scary once you start racing a car in which parts are scarce and expensive.

Good luck Mike! Look forward to the 'other' car. We could do with a few more of those and as you say, bits are readily available.

Being a purist often means having deep pockets. One of the reasons I am a pragmatist. It is cheaper.

Like you, work opportunities have evaporated over the last three years as just about everyone I have dealt with over the last 25 years has either given up altogether or now imports from China. It isn't just the shop floor jobs that get exported, it is the support infrastructure that also goes.

Long time no update.

Well things have moved on some since my last update.

1. I now have both 260z 2 seaters in the shed at home.

2. The fully caged car has been completely rewired by me, still have some minor wiring to complete (gauges, and coil loom and wipers outstanding)

3. With the restructuring at my last place of employment I have been busy looking for new employment. Shortage of IT staff in NZ....yeah right if you are a programmer maybe but I know of 4 others with similar skills as I and we all have been looking for roles for 3-4 months.

With #3 above in mind this has made me take a step back and rethink racing a Datsun for the following reasons.

1. Panel parts are either NLA (no longer available) or just too expensive to obtain.
2. Mechanical parts are now becoming the same ie rear stub axles are hard to find and even though aftermarket items can be purchased (stronger than originals as they are 4340 then heat treated after the machining process) but a pair will set you back $1000NZD before shipping and customs take their cut.

I guess that is whay racing a classic is about but with my current income status I have decided once I complete the fully caged car I will put it on the market. So one 100% T&C compliant Datsun 260z (and that is 100% not partly using 5speed in car that never came out with one etc) will be available for purchase with a ton of spares or not depending on negotiations and price.

However I still want to race so I have purchased a Saloon not a GT like the Datsun Z car (not a sports car as there was never an open top model. Definition of a sports car = open top 2 seater and the hard top based on the same model).

This Saloon car still has panel and mechanical parts available new today and at much better price point than a Datsun Z car.

Anyway the saloon car project will not start until the 260z has moved on. Having said that here is some details on the saloon.

Garaged all its life it was NZ in March 1972 it has not been used on the road since 2004 and has been in storage since with the rego on hold. Only has minor rust in the front floor (common issue for these make/models) and a split in the battery box in the boot. It is white in colour with red interior (typlical 70's styling).

More later once I collect the car from down line later this week 15 hour road trip coming.

Cheers

Yes Ray you are right. Fun is what I want. I know I will never win, but having fun is me all the way. Why I have supported your series is the mix of makes and models, I love to see that. The handicap makes for great to watch motorsport and most of all the driving standard is a key focus plus all the competitors always have big smiles and all get a long with each other.

I don't see the need for yet another grid also....I will not make ice breaker as a competitor but will be supporting the erc cars/grid as I have done for the last 10 years.

My car is close but still in stored away from me but I will have the shed rearranged by next week so both my zeds will be here at home = will be easier to complete the track car.

Thanks Rhys. I knew the figure was high but my brain/memory is somewhat warped through the extensive travel and different time zones and currencies! I can't really see them getting a full grid, though the original UK pre 1957 Saloon series had some (limited modifications) A35s giving the Mk 1 Jags and Mk 2 Zephyrs a good run for their money. Much of that was due to handling packages.

ERC, your "quote" is somewhat out. 15k pounds all done. Still seems a hell of a lot to me, but they are well sorted ready to run cars so....

928 wrote:if you got the relevant fia book with the seat measurements in and took the dimensions of a 4 seat 911 at the time the 911 did comply. The FIA then changed the regs.

As they do!

Being pragmatiic (as always...) there are varied opinions on this and quite frankly, much of it is 'bs' because life is full not just black and white, but also grey, especially if you take away self interest.

So you have an MGB sports - two doors and maybe a bench behind for a couple of tiny kids or legless dwarfs. Put a bolt on roof on it and it is still a sports car. However, a fixed roof and tailgate and it is a GT. They raced together in period and always have.
Stick the same engine and running gear into a full 4 seat Morris Marina with a sloping rear and what is it? Never a true GT in a million years nor a sports car, even with two doors.

BUT, does it really matter? We already have too many small classes without having an 'exclusion' philosophy.

Does a Morris Marina TC run happily against two door, 4/5 seat Falcons GTs, or even 240/260Zs? I think not.

Mike, we welcome your car and others deemed on the fringe, because in broad terms, it fits and we don't care a stuff if others want to nit pick over minor details, as when the flag drops, the b/s stops - especially so in handicaps. Historically 100% correct is fine - just as long as all the numbers stack up.

Race for fun as we (NZ), unlike the UK, can't ever field a full field of MGBs, let alone E Type Jaguars or GT 40's - or even Austin A35s built to a formula - at $70,000 a pop! (I think that was the figure quoted but I stand corrected.)

The stock of older vehicles is disappearing fast and will continue to do so. Every year it will get harder and harder to put together an interesting car, so if we are not careful, we will soon be swamped by a few identical makes/models where parts and spares are plentiful.

928 wrote:if you got the relevant fia book with the seat measurements in and took the dimensions of a 4 seat 911 at the time the 911 did comply
the fia then changed the regs

The person making the decision probably decided to try the back seats and found they were just like the alleged back seats in XK 140 and XK150 Jags.

if you got the relevant fia book with the seat measurements in and took the dimensions of a 4 seat 911 at the time the 911 did comply
the fia then changed the regs

nzeder wrote:So the question would be how about the 260z 2+2 these are a 4 seater with more passenger space unlike a rx7 or 911.

1. Is a Datsun 260z 2+2 classed as a Saloon (as much passenger room if not more than other period saloon aka Escorts) I believe it should be as they were fia approved for group 1 aka same a escorts, capri ie a saloon.

The FIA Apendix J for 1972 (on the FIA website) is quite clear - a touring car had at least 4 seats, a GT car had at least 2 seats. Hence why Porsche could win the European Touring Car Championship with the 911. imho a 260Z +2 could potentially run in the HMC U3l class. It's interesting that sports cars like the 240Z, Lancia Stratos and Renault Alpine could run in international rallies.

I, for one, look forward to seeing you run in what ever class will let you in.

Just carry on the way you are Mike, and come and race in the south Island, we will place you in a field of like cars, and I like the attion to the detail you are carrying out, I just wish more would do their home work in the same manner.
Roger

All of this does not change my mind on the fully caged car. It will be finished to T&C and I will run in ERC.

The flared car I will just finish it as intended have it mainly as a road car but I might see if it could pass as a replica Group 4 car under Schedule K

If I wanted to run in a HMC or the supporting U3L class I will just have to built a car to fit. Aka saloon - but would be good to have my 2 questions above answered - or clear up the interpretation of the engine rule.

So the question would be how about the 260z 2+2 these are a 4 seater with more passenger space unlike a rx7 or 911. One even appeared on the grid of one of the James Hardy 500 (or was it 1000 by then) in 1976 if I recall.

The ideal Nissan to race is the old Carlos Neate Nissan/Prince Skyline GTB as it was a sedan/saloon and raced here in NZ in period but it now is with a collector in Australia who does not race it....shame....

I personal don't buy in the 240z/260z as a sports car - GT car yes, sport car no. I say this due to the way the FIA classify cars under the rules of the day ie read the Appendix J for a period a 240z/260z raced in ie 1975 rules for Appendix J. A Datsun Zed car fits into the GT classes. Even the highly modified Group 4 240z/260z/280z raced under GTS in FIA, JAF (Japan's rep for FIA) or IMSA GTU. Sure some of the grid has "Sports Cars" as the FIA classified them - but I dislike a zed getting called a "Sports Car" as under FIA they are completely different cars/performance/cost. But that is just semantics to some no doubt - when I think I sports cars I think of Le Manns specials or cars with no roof's aka British Sports Cars.

Also see this a reference (not that wiki can be trusted all the time)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer
Notice the Nissan Zcar is listed as such a car.

If I could purchase my old 160jsss back or import a correct 510 or better yet a 260z 2+2 and swap stuff over has the bonus of 6" more wheelbase and 2" more room in the rear for 9" rims with out mods.

However that is if I want to run in a saloon based grid. If I was to look at saloon then I would consider other Nissan L6 powered cars - like an early Skyline - saloon car, which as you have pointed out Steve one of the models was marketed locally as a Datsun 240K factory fitted with the same L24 engine (slightly de-tuned version) as fitted to the Datsun 240z.

My only concern with choosing such a car is this part of the T&C rules (I almost purchase that car you talk of too many years ago but pulled out of the trademe auction letting it go to a fellow zed club member, and then got the 160j sss I talked about before)

3.6 Engine (1) Cylinder head(s) and block may be changed to one of the
same make and model range and must be visually
standard and be of standard material.

It does depend on how this rule is interpreted - if talking the car there could be issues as a Datsun 240k chassis unlike the 240z chassis was never factory fitted with a L28. So in theory it could not have one fitted as the L24 cc is 2393cc + 15% as allowed by T&C put it just under the stock L28 size at 2751cc vs 2753cc (2cc hardly worth pushing really given L24 engines are hard to come by these days but L28 are more common)

However if that rule is interpreted as just the engine then. L24 - became the L26 which in turn the L28 and they are all made from the same standard material and from the same make and model range aka the Nissan L6 range of engines.

So how does one interpret this rule? This could mean a fan of the Nissan L6 engines could ran a number of Nissan Saloon's for such a grid if one was to feel so inclined.

I know this meant to be my build thread but could I get answers to these questions.

1. Is a Datsun 260z 2+2 classed as a Saloon (as much passenger room if not more than other period saloon aka Escorts) I believe it should be as they were fia approved for group 1 aka same a escorts, capri ie a saloon.

2. Does the T&C engine rule apply to the engine made/model or car made/model range - of cause the cars age must reflect the engine age if later ie L24 = 1969, L28 = 1975 so any Datsun/Nissan fitted with an L28 needs to be aged as a 1975 cars (when the L28 was first FIA approved)

Mike, you're a classic case of the right guy with the wrong car. By that I mean, you understand historic car racing, building a period correct car, and going historic racing for all the right reasons. Unfortunately, you're in love with a model of car that is a production sports car, in a country that has very little motorsport history for such cars, and as such, doesn't yet have the drive needed to create a dedicated class for such cars. Unfortunately for you, NZ is very much sedan racing lop-sided.

Dale is correct. HMC and the U3 saloon groups are for sedan cars, and not production sports cars. The reason for this is these groups have been created to replicate history. Back in period, saloon cars raced against saloon cars. And production sports cars raced against production sports cars. And the two rarely ever came together.

You are correct in that at some events the two did race on the same track at the same time. Daytona 24 Hours, Sebring 12 Hours, and Le Mans are classic examples. But in historic racing events around the world, generally the two groups are separated, because thats how they raced in period.

You're a classic Datsun guy. As you know, Datsun were trying to establish themselves in the US market in the late 1960s and early '70s, and they used motorsport to help achieve this. They contracted Pete Brock's BRE group to race cars in both sedan racing and production sports car racing. They ran Datsun 510s in the SCCA Trans-Am sedan racing 2.5 litre class, and Datsun 240Zs in B and C/Production sports car racing. But the 240zs weren't allowed to race with the Trans-Am cars, because they were a sports car.

In the US and Australia, and even in NZ, Porsche 911s were briefly considered sedan cars, and were allowed to race with the sedans. But even this was borderline, and the Porsches were kicked out of the Trans-Am after 1969, and the Australian Touring Car Championship after 1971. In NZ, a Porsche raced in the 1972 NZ Saloon Car Championship in 1972, but was thus sent away following that season, and was consistently protested by the other teams throughout. A Porsche also raced for a season in the Castrol GTX production series, but likewise was eventually banned. Essentially, the 911 was considered a production sports car, but their brief inclusion in sedan racing in period means they're often accepted into historic sedan grids today. But this was the exception, rather than the rule. Generally, sedans and sports cars had their own separate races and championships.

I could be wrong about this, but its my understanding its the cabin size that dictates whether its considered a sedan or sports car?

At the Australian Muscle Car Masters in a couple of weeks, CAMS Historic Group S will be competing. This is a dedicated class for production sports cars, and combines everything from 240Zs, to Shelby Cobras, Corvettes, Lotus Elans, MGs, De Tomaso Panteras, etc, that, in period, would have raced together. But Group S runs separately from Group Na/Nb/Nc Historic Touring Cars. Historic racing is about replicating history. It sucks, and it would be great to find a solution, but you can't change history unfortunately.

If you allow a 240Z to run with the saloons, you also have to allow Corvettes, TVR Griffiths, and other potentially very fast production sports cars as well, and this will only drive away the saloon car people and spread the field out. Its not period correct, and would cause more problems than it would solve.

An interesting side-note regarding this. We have one guy joining HMC/Under 3, who is a Nissan 300Z nut. He owns a collection of these cars, and has spent plenty of dosh on them. But he also really likes the idea of racing a period correct car, with like-minded enthusiasts. So he bought himself a Datsun 240K, a rare early Japanese sedan that is eligible to run, raced in period, and will be period correct. Food for thought?

Otherwise, wouldn't it be great to see a group established for period correct production sports cars. Now thats something that really has some potential.

nzeder wrote:Fair points. Me I like the grids of the period endurance series that is where 240z, TR4/5, Escorts RS1600, Alfas, Porsches, Mustangs, Camaros etc all racing at the same time ie Sebring, Daytona, Spa, Le Manns etc different classes but all running at the same time. Here is a link to the 1972 Sebring entry list.

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Sebring-1972-03-25.html

And what a dream that would be Mike, for events like the Festival were its sprint racing EG: 8 to 12 laps were each historic class is broken down into its correct categories(as at Monterey, Goodwood, etc) having HMC(for over 3 saloons), Historic Saloon cars(U3L) Production Sports cars(O/U3L) racing individually as history dictates, and them from time to time all coming together for a Historic endurance event like they do at the Spa 6 hour meeting(even a 1 hour would be fun) BUT only historically correct cars allowed, now that really would be FUN.

Arrr old car Motorsport, don't yar just luv it,

Nittey Nite

Dale M

Fair points. Me I like the grids of the period endurance series that is where 240z, TR4/5, Escorts RS1600, Alfas, Porsches, Mustangs, Camaros etc all racing at the same time ie Sebring, Daytona, Spa, Le Manns etc different classes but all running at the same time. Here is a link to the 1972 Sebring entry list.

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Sebring-1972-03-25.html

nzeder wrote:Thanks for clearing that up and I understand your point you are doing a good thing with HMC and V8 muscle cars have always been a popular car in Australia and NZ. The production based racing I always think of is in EU and Japan/Asia. Given I was living in Asia as a young child in the early 70's most of the cars I grew up with were Japanese or English/Euro. Australian or American cars where just not around in the numbers when I was young in Asia.

So my era is different (a 70's born gen xer) and I guess that is why 70's cars are my thing and under 3l given the 70's fuel crisis etc

Sure Mike we all grew up in different eras and this is what drives us to have different vehicles of interest, the most popular saloon racing was USA(off-course) England, South Africa(somewhat), Australian and NZ and that was about it although im sure some on here will state otherwise but im talking about the "main country's" that ran Saloon class's period, they/we all ran under FIA group 2 and 5 and even American Trans Am started out under FIA and then went onto there own thing(hence why there cars have removed bumpers, headlights, door glass, etc but must be refitted under HMC rules) and really the era HMC reflects is that 67 to 73/4 period but using T&C rules we allowed big bore saloons up to 12/77 and thats also why Escorts, early BMW's, Minis, Capris fit our HMC grid, it represents the era of our Motorsport history. Off-course the whole Japanese performance car thing really only got started in the early/mid 70's mainly for the American market and that's why you don't see much Japanese stuff in that early(67 to 72/3) period.Even in NZ it was end of that big banger/Sports Sedan era around 78 that Shell Sport became the class under MSNZ featuring many Japanese cars but still saloons and not 2 seater production Sports cars.

Currently with the "miss mash" of class's thought out the world countries like Australia, USA have cauterized there historic groups according to how they ran in the era, and/or outside that how the "Manufacturer" designated each vehicle if those vehicles didn't race in that country period, so it is general accepted that a 2 door 2 seater car is a Sports Car that is production based(even if the manufacture calls it a GT, early Porsche is one example) and a 2 and 4 door cars with 4 seats are a Saloon car production based and thats how most set up there class's(USA anyway) and that's why all must still have production manufactured body work and not what one may have been used in a given year in a particular country of origin, EG Japan or Asia for instances, but one can always go and race at historic events in Japan/Asian countries that accept their particular period race car class of there era(joking off-course).

Anyway thats just touching the surface and i could go on forever in finite detail but hopefully i've spelt out the general idea? and like i said at some smaller events these 2 groups will race together and at larger events race apart, not the end of the world and don't go of track with your build Mike, you're still doing it right.

PS: Bowell Nagaris were a Australian made production based Sports car(100 or more made to fit the criteria, Bowell made 600 i believe)that came fitted with engines from 186 Holdens to 351 Ford Clevelands and weighted about 900KG, ugly lookin think but someone originally wanted to build one for HMC hence why we now have an Eligibility list

Dale M

Thanks for clearing that up and I understand your point you are doing a good thing with HMC and V8 muscle cars have always been a popular car in Australia and NZ. The production based racing I always think of is in EU and Japan/Asia. Given I was living in Asia as a young child in the early 70's most of the cars I grew up with were Japanese or English/Euro. Australian or American cars where just not around in the numbers when I was young in Asia.

So my era is different (a 70's born gen xer) and I guess that is why 70's cars are my thing and under 3l given the 70's fuel crisis etc

nzeder wrote:ok but in Tony's car case and like wise a Pantera or a Bowell Nagari none of these cars are under 3l so don't fit that class/group. So what has that got to do with the under 3l class? It is a shame cars like the 240z/260z, TR4, TR7, Lotus Elan, Arthur's Alfa are all excluded as the factory did not fit a back seat but Escort and other 2+2 can and can even remove the rear seats aka now 2 seaters. I guess that is the bit I don't understand. Why can't we just have under 3l production based classic cars. FIA defines Sports Cars as purpose built 2 seater specials built for just the track not the road and not mass produced. 2 seater production mass produced are usually called GT cars and where allowed on the same grids in period as other period production classes, sure might be in a different groups for points but on the same grid.

Well now heres a great opportunity for you Mike, you should get in, start and organise(all voluntary just like me) a Historic Sports Car Class for U3L and O3L production Sports cars and deal with all the shit that goes with it because of the miss management of historic racing that has been in this country for years, anyway, when looking at most NZ and Australian historic racing these vehicles very rarely ran together if at all. I look at old Saloon car pictures from Baypark, Pukey and alike(early days) and these were always Saloons running together and this is what HMC is suppose to represent(just like the American Historic Trans Am) and I've always said from the get go that "Saloons" is what HMC is about but its funny how it gets watered down over time and that's why the brakes are coming on before our saloon guys go away and don't wanta race anymore.

PS: I don't mind helping you start this new Historic Production Sports Car class and im sure HRC and TACCOC will welcome it.

Dale M

Kiwiboss wrote:But as a point of interest even the likes of Tony Roberts corvette can't race with us been a sports Car and he's a HMC director but in the future at events like the Ice Breaker and Legends there will the two groups(as there is at the Festival and how its done overseas), I've had a person wanting to build a Pantera for HMC but as its a Sports car its not eligible, a Bowell Nagari was another, allowing these cars in would have a devastating effect on the field and drive away the saloon car owners.

Gotta run

Dale M

ok but in Tony's car case and like wise a Pantera or a Bowell Nagari none of these cars are under 3l so don't fit that class/group. So what has that got to do with the under 3l class? It is a shame cars like the 240z/260z, TR4, TR7, Lotus Elan, Arthur's Alfa are all excluded as the factory did not fit a back seat but Escort and other 2+2 can and can even remove the rear seats aka now 2 seaters. I guess that is the bit I don't understand. Why can't we just have under 3l production based classic cars. FIA defines Sports Cars as purpose built 2 seater specials built for just the track not the road and not mass produced. 2 seater production mass produced are usually called GT cars and where allowed on the same grids in period as other period production classes, sure might be in a different groups for points but on the same grid.