The Roaring Season

by **nzeder** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:29 am

Yes it does seem that way Ray. Under the FIA Appendix K it states if no international history but some national championship event...so not even a local clubmans meeting from back in the day counts either

and then it MAY also be accepted that does not mean it will be, just that the FIA HTP committee may consider the application that is all

by **ERC** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:11 am

Sadly, internationally, it therefore appears the FIA outlaws models that were NOT raced in period internationally or even nationally, even if the car is 100% period correct.

Fortunately, a CoD here would be issued for such a car and it would therefore be eligible to race in NZ, but even though period correct or even 100% standard, not overseas in an Appendix K meeting - which I find rather odd.

by **nzeder** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:50 am

After all this reading of the regs MSNZ Schedule K, Schedule T&C and the FIA Appendix K and knowing that it will be a long long time before I have $$/or factory original/sports option parts to make my car FIA HTP (given it was a 1/2 complete project) so I will go T&C rules and COD as the car fits those rules better in its current state.

I hope some of the info posted does help others understand some of the differences and how important it is to read the regs before you start a fresh build etc.

by **nzeder** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:41 am

CUSTAXIE50 wrote:So where does a new all comers race car that you may have started fit in.

Good question - if in "period" and as stated in the FIA Appendix K and I quote

If a model has not taken part in period in international races, HTPs of corresponding cars must be submitted to the HMSC supported by evidence from the relevant ASN that the model has a history in period of competition in events of national significance.

So if the "all comers race car" you are talking about fits the above quote and you can prove this without a doubt then it, and again I quote

Cars without an international competition history but which have a competition history in national championship events or other significant national events of equivalent status may also be accepted.

It might be accepted by the FIA for HTP - but that is up to them - so if HTP or Schedule K is something you are considering with a car (or if you think you would like to replica a car of a period etc) then I think it would be wise to check first before you even start to build/purchase a car to ensure you are not going down the road that has no ending/path to race.

by **CUSTAXIE50** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:29 am

nzeder wrote:Yes thanks for posting that up Dale - a good read for those that have not seen this before. It explains the reasoning behind the whole FIA HTP and what is involved in getting and having HTP.

Mike

I need to make a correction to my post above - I will do that now but just spotted this in the FIA Appendix K

I guess the key words in that is "may also be accepted"

also from the FIA Appendix K

So where does a new all comers race car that you may have started fit in.

by **nzeder** » Fri May 31, 2013 6:45 am

Yes thanks for posting that up Dale - a good read for those that have not seen this before. It explains the reasoning behind the whole FIA HTP and what is involved in getting and having HTP.

Mike

I need to make a correction to my post above - I will do that now but just spotted this in the FIA Appendix K

Cars without an international competition history but which have a competition history in national championship events or other significant national events of equivalent status may also be accepted.

I guess the key words in that is "may also be accepted"

also from the FIA Appendix K

If a model has not taken part in period in international races, HTPs of corresponding cars must be submitted to the HMSC supported by evidence from the relevant ASN that the model has a history in period of competition in events of national significance.

by **Spgeti** » Fri May 31, 2013 6:21 am

Thanks Dale, a very good article.
Cheers, Bruce

by **Kiwiboss** » Fri May 31, 2013 6:10 am

If you can't read this E-mail me direct at mailto:

?subject=&body=

and i'll send it though, its from the latest USA Vintage motorsport magazine and is a great read.

Dale M

by **nzeder** » Fri May 31, 2013 2:17 am

I know this much.

Weather I go down the K car path (if the mods already done before I purchased the car ie pedal box and strut to strut cage are ok under K) or the T&C path the car will be to the rules and will stay that way.

I have a better understanding of the rules having read and re-read them time and time again. FIA Appendix K is longer and is much harder to get your head around - and at first seems overwhelming. I think MSNZ Schedule K and T&C rules are much easier to understand and therefore built to.

So you summarize - this is for those who are looking to build a car or make a car conform to the rules as they are today.

FIA Appendix K is for (talking about production based cars not 1 offs or special stuff)

1. Standard Series Production Cars (saloons or Sport & GT) as homologated as such so little or non modifications from the show room floor - no movement.

2. Competition Cars (based on the cars that qualify as #1) as homologated in modified form of the period in question and group in question. Parts can be replicated if NLA but be 100% replicas/dimensional correct. ie 100% as it was.

FIA HTP cars therefore have a known config and can (does not mean they will be accepted by the event organizers) run at Historic & Classic International Meetings

The above is based on cars as homologated by the FIA in the day for an International Event - this does not cover locally build or raced cars - only those the competed in International Events - correction see my post lower down but this is from the FIA Appendix K rules.

Cars without an international competition history but which have a competition history in national championship events or other significant national events of equivalent status may also be accepted.

MSNZ Schedule K much like above however can be based on any National race series around the world - is this correct?
Again MSNZ K COD is for

1. Standard Series Production Cars same as above

2. Competition Cars (based on #1) just like the FIA Appendix K stuff but the cars can be national/local level + International level cars

A COD in K does not mean the car can run at FIA HTP Historic and Classic events internationally - if you want to play that game FIA HTP is for you.

MSNZ T&C

1. Must be based on a Series Production Car and retain the Standard Production body work - if your car does not fit this it does not fit T&C without correcting this or looking to a different Schedule maybe K as Competition Car of the day.
2. Depending on the group your car fits into - Group 1 & 2 - more engine mods, brake mods, suspesions mods, wheels free + 1" more than period is permitted - all these mods must be as period. Groups 3 & 4 - limited engine mods, only pad/fluid can change, suspension shocks free, springs free so limited mods, wheels free + 1" from standard rim.

So that is basics - you need to read the rules as this is just a summary. So have I missed anything?

by **John McKechnie** » Fri May 31, 2013 12:50 am

Oldfart- never give up your principles and beliefs. Many more of us feel the same, and views need constant airing.
Unfortunately motor racing is all about pushing boundaries.

by **Allan** » Fri May 31, 2013 12:29 am

I look at mods such as this heater radiator removal as having no bearing on the cars performance and therefore should be allowed. But having said that it I think it should be made clear to ALL competitors using the same car that the mod is permitted thereby stopping those who would try and do it correctly from sending large dollars after the problem.

by **nzeder** » Thu May 30, 2013 11:26 pm

Spgeti wrote:I removed my heater after 2 failures of the heater radiator......hot water running around on the floor was not fun and yes guess what, no new radiators avaliable and to repair was just over the top $$$$.
The antiquated system wasn't up to demisting anything so I will go to an electric bilge fan and hide it under the dash.

Exactly my plan. I have seen guys at the track with this setup and if the bilge fan is getting the air supply from outside the car (standard vent source is my plan) then the car has a good clear screen - better than a 1960's designed hot water heater system and what I would call a "safety" upgrade so should be permitted by any rule book in my opinion.

by **Spgeti** » Thu May 30, 2013 10:03 pm

nzeder wrote:I started this thread to

Questions about T&C
1. T&C states Schedule AA for safety which also refers to Schedule A. Under Schedule A any liquid passing thought the cock pit is to be in a steel braid hose or hard line. If these lines pass thought a bulk head then a threaded bulk head fitting is to be used. So if I was to leave the heater in then my water which is a liquid inside the cock pit and passes through the firewall aka bulk head to the engine all this needs to be as stated. Is this correct?
2. Because of 1 this is why I want to remove the heater and again just run something for demist only and I can do this in T&C correct?

So it might be my personal desire not to have hot water from the engine bay that might dictate the class/path I go as T&C will allow it and if Schedule K or FIA Appendix K does not then T&C it will be

I removed my heater after 2 failures of the heater radiator......hot water running around on the floor was not fun and yes guess what, no new radiators avaliable and to repair was just over the top $$$$.
The antiquated system wasn't up to demisting anything so I will go to an electric bilge fan and hide it under the dash.

by **nzeder** » Thu May 30, 2013 9:33 pm

Even one of the most massed produced sports cars of it era - the Datsun 240z - has parts that are hard and almost impossible to obtain aka unobtainium unless you have big $$ to get a collector to part with them. Yes I am talking bumpers too. Once you could get parts from Nissan via Japan however more and more Nissan have retired the stock selling it off to private hands who sometimes will not part with them or only releasing parts bit by bit on a Japanese auction site for big $$.

Once you could just get a complete 260z 2+2 for parts at around $500-1500 but now they are ask up to $10,000 and a 240z (a good one) $20,000+

So even a car like the Datsun Z which was seen as an affordable classic is now becoming not affordable - I guess this might be why cars are in sheds? Parts are getting too $$ or hard to find? Sure it is ok if you can get new parts still that makes it much easier. I purchased a new bonnet from Nissan for my road car and that was $850 RRP and the first one they imported for me was damaged in transit so I refused to take it asking them to get another one - which they did and that too was damaged not as bad easy repair so I got a discount - I actually wanted another one I was not going to pay big $$ for damaged goods but I was told that was it they could not get another one out of Japan and that was 10 years ago. Front guards at the time were $450 RRP each and I have been told those too are NLA and that is front of the car that is shared between 2 seater and 2+2 version - rear of the car..well they have not been available for years.

by **ERC** » Thu May 30, 2013 9:01 pm

Spgeti wrote:The Trofeo Veloce Class is the closest to T&C but for me to run down here I have to be Bumpered where in Trofeo exemption is given to 105s to run as they were historically bumperless. Small thing as it is but I find it quite annoying as
bumpers are bloody near impossible to replace on the 105.

Snap! The condition of the only bumpers I have for the MG detract from its appearance and I am not about to spend a couple of thousand dollars, getting them up to an accepable standard only for some wayward driver to bend them!

Which is why we have these niggling little hiccups. People making blanket rules need to understand that the chances of minor damage when racing, even with the high standards shown by the majority of classic racers, are generally to bumpers and impossible to source trims. (The H & C Commission have stated that they will grant an exemption for hard to source trims - but I presume that only extends to the application for a CoD.) Whilst you seem to be able to get absolutely anything for a Mini or an MGB (including a new shell), a Ford Mustang or Escort, the same cannot be said for many other makes. The last thing I want is for another bland grid of identical cars, forced upon us because the powers that be cannot see that the very essence of Classic racing is the sheer variety of vehicles presented, even to the extent of variations on a theme. ie 1300cc Escorts through to Gordon Burr's V8 Escort, Capri 2 litres to Perana V8 Capris, albeit most are not all that true to the original Peranas!

MG (Whittakers as was) is a prime example. They have always insisted on bumpers yet history shows that in many classes over the years, bumpers were removed, initially to save weight, but in the classic arena, it is to preserve the originality. The fact that MG always put on a well promoted and well supported meeting merely emphasises the point I made earlier. That is that the race organisers call the shots, not MSNZ and not the H & C Commission, so if we have a few cars that fall outside the requirements of two or three meetings a year, so be it.

The push for purity needs to be balanced by the commercial viability of a race meeting.

I too totally support Steve/Dale/Tony with their tight HMC rules, but it wouldn't work for us and it wouldn't work for some others and at this stage, HMC is still in a steady growth phase and has yet to achive financial viability as a stand alone grid. They are currently only doing 4 or 5 meetings a year.

by **Carlo** » Thu May 30, 2013 10:11 am

Allan wrote:Good thread guys with great information coming out.
The car I refer to is a FIAT 124 special T saloon with an engine capacity of 1592cc which would allow the use of the 1756cc twincam engine based on the 12.5% rule. The thoughts we have at the moment are to fit a FIAT 131 transmission (1975-83) and a Mazda diff. The brakes both front and rear would be FIAT but larger vented rotors at the front and larger rotor at the rear with calipers from FIATs of the late 1980s or early 90s. We would use 14 inch wheels (13 inch was standard). We are looking to build something that is reliable and safe that we could use for a variety of events without spending a huge fortune. We've already done that to achieve one good Targa finish in our FIAT 131R.
As an aside and not to highjack this thread Targa have a weird rule (my personal opinion) that places the car in a class/category according the last year of production which I find unusual as the way I see it the technology that built the car is normally 10 years or so before that.
Allan

Running Schedule RH over a few things mentioned re the FIAT 124 special T saloon remembering that “The Period” Means prior to 1st January 1987. And that we have to look where the word “or” is used

4.3. Engine
(3) The original make of cylinder block and crankcase from the manufacturer of the vehicle or the homologated / Period option must be employed.
(4) The original make of cylinder head from the manufacturer of the vehicle or the
homologated / Period option must be employed. Modifications are free.

The thoughts we have at the moment are to fit a FIAT 131 transmission (1975-83)
4.4 Transmission:
(b) An homologated non OE option from an alternative vehicle of the Period, or
(c) An alternative transmission from the same vehicle manufacturer where the alternative transmission was fitted to a series production vehicle from that same manufacturer within the Period.

and a Mazda diff.
(3) Final drive: Free, provided that the original type of axle housing must be retained.

The brakes both front and rear would be FIAT but larger vented rotors at the front and larger rotor at the rear with calipers from FIATs of the late 1980s or early 90s.
4.6 Brakes:
(1) Dual circuit braking systems are permitted, as is the installation/removal of vacuum power assistance.
(2) Brake lining material and hydraulic hoses are free.
(3) Drum brakes may be replaced by Disc brakes. Rotors must be constructed only of ferrous material.
(4) Pedal boxes enabling adjustable brake bias are permitted.
(5) Hydraulic handbrakes are permitted.

We would use 14 inch wheels (13 inch was standard)
4.9 Road Wheels & Tyres:
(1) Wheel diameter may be varied by no more than two(2) sizes up or down from the
manufacturer’s specifications. Otherwise, wheels are free.

by **Spgeti** » Thu May 30, 2013 8:59 am

Yes ERC I agree with your summary of Alfa Trofeo rules.....they are made around what is sensible and what the trends are worldwide. Twinsparks are a logical solution to an ever disappearing twincam. While the 2ltrs twincam engines are still out there 1300s and 1600s are thin on the ground. What I don't like is the loss of oringinality and I have for several years considered it to be by some an easy way out.
The Trofeo Veloce Class is the closest to T&C but for me to run down here I have to be Bumpered where in Trofeo exemption is given to 105s to run as they were historically bumperless. Small thihg as it is but I find it quite annoying as bumpers are bloody near imposible to replace on the 105.
For us down here running our May Maddness Meeting we accept all comers as we need to fill the grids and this month had 25 Alfas on the grid.....all ages of cars and not one bump or damage after the day...smiles all round.
My car is correct in every part of T&C apart from the bumpers are removed.
I admire what you have done with your series over the many year but I also admire Dale and Steve for their strong stance with there rules with HMC....the yanks have all the parts to buy to achieve that desire where as us Itailians are at a disadvantage. Yes there are fewer 105s that come out to play these days and part of that are there increasing value.

by **nzeder** » Thu May 30, 2013 8:42 am

I started this thread to

1. Make sure my understanding of the rules as they are is correct - tick I think I have the rules down.
2. Help me make a decision as to which direction I go with the car - K car or T&C - sort of tick I am still not sure which way to go. So time to ask more questions

At this point in time Spgeti I am learning towards T&C for much the same reasons.

I can't go K as a Standard Production Sports & GT as the car has mods done by the PO which are outside of the rule as I read them. The cage in the car goes front strut to rear strut and as mush as K rules don't focus on safety leaving that to the correct Schedule/Appendix it does state for that group the cage is not permitted to past thought the bulk head or finish near the suspension location point (going by memory this time). Plus it has a pedal box installed.

So that leaves K as a Competition Sport & GT car for the correct period which would be GT27 H1 for my 74 260z 2 seater - this does allow my to fit an L28 as approved in 7/75 without change the period or group for the car. I have the optional triple mikuni carbs and I have sourced the period works calipers (need rebuilding and new pistons + rotors are NLA). The car has adjustable suspension/coil overs/lower control arms etc so I am still researching what was done in period in this regard. Under MSNZ K I need to run 60 aspect ratio tyres yet under FIA K 15" and 570mm min total diamember aka 45/50 profile 15" come in larger than 570mm

Then T&C - body must be standard - check, period mods ie triple mikuni's, l28 check, adjustable suspension is ok check, brakes - I could run the works stuff or I can run other period calipers that were installed on the car and raced anywhere in the world. 15" rims with a 50 aspect ratio check .

So T&C is my lean right now as that is the cheaper option and the car with a pedal box and strut to strut cage fits those rules.

So my questions to those far more knowledgeable than I on these matters are.

1. Under FIA HTP or Schedule K is a pedal box permitted if used in period?
2. Why does the FIA Appendix K allow for 15" with 50 aspect ratio - fits in the min tyre diameter yet Schedule K states 60 aspect ratio.
3. Under K it states you can remove the heater and use another cateloged item for the made/model - but what if I want to remove the heater altogether and not have hot water from the engine bay inside near my feet - and just use a fan/blower for demisting only is this permitted?

Questions about T&C
1. T&C states Schedule AA for safety which also refers to Schedule A. Under Schedule A any liquid passing thought the cock pit is to be in a steel braid hose or hard line. If these lines pass thought a bulk head then a threaded bulk head fitting is to be used. So if I was to leave the heater in then my water which is a liquid inside the cock pit and passes through the firewall aka bulk head to the engine all this needs to be as stated. Is this correct?
2. Because of 1 this is why I want to remove the heater and again just run something for demist only and I can do this in T&C correct?

So it might be my personal desire not to have hot water from the engine bay that might dictate the class/path I go as T&C will allow it and if Schedule K or FIA Appendix K does not then T&C it will be

by **ERC** » Thu May 30, 2013 8:41 am

Dale, I would shudder at the thought of any interference by MSNZ or the commission, poking their noses into what is working well - having just made a bank transfer to MSNZ for just on $2,500 from our April meeting!

Far from the race organisers "scooping up the entries" many invite specific groups (series) and therefore are bound by series rules of eligibility. If they were to try and pick and choose or interfere, then those series would go elsewhere - which has happened in the past.

Or, like the HD Festival, they elicit entries for conforming cars and allocate them to appropriate grids as they see fit. However, although entries may conform, the disparity or speed differentials within the grids is not acceptable to many of us and to be honest, at the recent festival, the driving standards left a lot to be desired with far too much car damage compared to a "normal" series meeting, where drivers know each other.

by **Allan** » Thu May 30, 2013 8:39 am

Good thread guys with great information coming out.
The car I refer to is a FIAT 124 special T saloon with an engine capacity of 1592cc which would allow the use of the 1756cc twincam engine based on the 12.5% rule. The thoughts we have at the moment are to fit a FIAT 131 transmission (1975-83) and a Mazda diff. The brakes both front and rear would be FIAT but larger vented rotors at the front and larger rotor at the rear with calipers from FIATs of the late 1980s or early 90s. We would use 14 inch wheels (13 inch was standard). We are looking to build something that is reliable and safe that we could use for a variety of events without spending a huge fortune. We've already done that to achieve one good Targa finish in our FIAT 131R.
As an aside and not to highjack this thread Targa have a weird rule (my personal opinion) that places the car in a class/category according the last year of production which I find unusual as the way I see it the technology that built the car is normally 10 years or so before that.
Allan

The Roaring Season

MSNZ - Schedule K and T&C and maybe FIA HTP related questions info etc

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