The Roaring Season

Oldfart, Sometimes it pays not to be tall

Sorry Roger, don't know where my roll bar maker got the 100!
In regards "normally seated occupant" I would think that is very simple, it does not say "A" ... it says "the", so legal argument should it ever come to that would say is this "the" occupant right now, end of discussion I would believe.

Until everything gets transferred to the new tread - the MSNZ Historic regulations for roll bar height is 50mm above the helmet - not 100mm - Appendix Six, Schedule AA 4.4 (3) (c) "Open Vehicles - the height of the main rollbar should be at least 50mm above the top of the helmet of the normally seated vehicle occupant".
The question is what is a "normally seated vehicle occupant"? A driver who is 5' 2" tall or one who is 6' 2" tall? Do you need to rebuilt the height of the rollbar every time a different sized driver gets in? Or do you build one for an average sized person (say 5' 9") and leave it at that?

Yes I agree that it deserves a thread of its own,I think there will be a bit of ongoing discussion on this topic

Hoooooray Wal Will,

This issue deserves a separate thread for sure. I steered clear of classic racing even though I had a real desire to compete, specifically because there was no way I was going ruin my cars with a damned role over bar. What is more I have found myself under a open sports car completely inverted during circuit racing, so have an excellent perspective on the matter.

Cheers, Trevor

Agree, New Thread please!

I wonder if this safety stuff deserves another thread. Along with a lot of people out there I grew up with races like the Waimate/Dunedin street events, where a couple of hay bales at the base of a lamp post were basically there to indicate danger - not to be hit unless you wanted to hurt yourself. I think that even now should the organisers be prepared to run the same course with the same safety features that there would be a lot of drivers prepared to race.
Illegal to ride a push bike with out a helmet, and on and on, to 5+ airbags in your car. I am well aware - having been around motor racing in the 60's - that there is great danger in motor racing. Every racing Drivers wife was asked "Dont you worry about all the risk?" when they were being interviewed. Having said all of that, I put on my helmet and do up the seat belt every time I race nowadays. I would not be let out the gate if I didn't, but I have the option of undoing the buckles once I am out there - but I don't - and to tell you the truth I think I drive faster because of it.

So in fact, was most of the racing in the 50's done without roll protection and without seat belts. I know some drivers used belts...George Smith for one, a large lap strap, but a lot of drivers were afraid of being trapped in cars, and were happy to take their chances when thrown out. Images of George Lawton being catapulted from his machine were not nice, and that was one time when no belts was no good.[at least, I think he had no belts] Some of the more innovative drivers of that era used bits of rope and clothing belts to keep them in place, but how effective they were is in doubt. As you say GeeBeeNZ, one has to evaluate and minimise.....and that is where debate comes in.....minimise, rather than remove ALL risk. I dont know, in the end of course it's up to the individual. We all think we are indestructable, and accidents happen to the other bloke, but sometimes we get involved in OTHER peoples accidents. The heading of this thread is 'leadfoot festival' so maybe a bit less lead in the right foot is the answer. Shivers this is starting to put me off.....now, where did I put those knitting needles!!!!!!!!

I guess period looks compared to safety may depend on wether you are watching or driving. In the Roycroft Video Clip from last year you will see almost a complete lack of rollbars and most of the cars had no belts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnEXiLjdadg&context=C4d56432ADvjVQa1PpcFP0vjhehCxxcM2wJW9ZFQXYh_YqnisLg4c=
I drove an Austin Seven Sports Car in that race without either and felt OK. In another race I also ran my Buckler Mk5 which is a much faster car and had both roll bar and belts but an open face helmet with goggles. The Buckler ran through the eighties in the Wellington Street Race Historics and Porsche Lemans at Pukekohe without a roll bar. I am mindfull of the fact that it rolled end for end at Whenuapai when the steering box let go. Thankfully I was not the driver. The reality is that Motor Racing is dangerous but you have to try and evaluate and minimise the risk. Thankfully the accident record of pre 1945 vintage racers in modern times is pretty good.

Yes oldfart, and I often think about the 55 LeMans crash. The Mercedes climbed the rear of the Austin Healey at high speed and launched itself into the bank and then the crowd. Lance Macklin, the Healey driver was unscathed....may have been a tyre mark on his helmet, but there was no roll bar on the Austin. Amazing! I think Fangio got a smear of green paint from the Healey as he ripped through the middle of the melee. There have been some amazing escapes in motoracing which could have ended up disasters.
And there is another one of our acronyms.......FWIW.......for what it's worth!

The weird thing is that 50mm is being quoted. The actual dimension is 100mm above the helmet.
I have very mixed feelings about this. I was going to take the bar off till a somewhat noteworthy local/international driver told me about another Connaught having been climbed over from behind, if there had not been a bar the driver, in his opinion would not have survived.
Roger, while I see your point about hillclimbs, have you considered what a fence might do? Ah the wonderful world of "what if"!!
AMCO is right too, they will do nothing for side crashes.
I don't think the Connaught of Grant Clearwaters looks too bad!

These comments on roll-bars are very interesting, I thought it was just me in my pedantic old way that was offended by them. RogerH says that pre61 cars only have to meet period specifications; so roll hoops/frames are fitted by current owners for 'safety' reasons. And if the frame does not extend 50mm above the drivers helmet he only gets half his face ripped off in a roll-over, so they are virtually useless. Note we keep talking about ROLL-OVER.....not crashes...front or side. Amerikiwi your term 'sanitised' just about sums it up. I looked at a photo of the A7 grid at last years Roycroft, and I couldn't see a single roll-frame, but it may have been the angle of the photo, and when Terry puts a roll-hoop on his Fathers Bugatti then I will call it quits!!!!!!

I totally agree with the period "looks" but the fact is these days driver deaths or serious injuries are almost unacceptable. I'm not a fan of how sanitised it has become, I thought it was a real shocker that he final Indy race at Vegas was halted after a few laps because Dan Wheldon was killed. In our day practice and qualifying deaths were shrugged off and the show went on. When I worked for Bryan Faloon it was pretty obvious his crash was fatal but the race resumed. Don't think that would be the case now even in NZ.
Personally I like the old look, just saying regulations, liability and public perception are surpassing our opinions.
And I do hate those new style roll bars, so tall they look like scaffolding on sports cars here.....

With helmets and old single seaters, I run a full face on the track but an open face in hill climbs. The reason is that in circuit racing with other cars, stones etc often get flung up from cars in front and I've had some big chips out of the lower part of the full face helmet (which would have been my face in an open helmet). At Leadfoot I ran an open face with goggles which looked period to the car.

With rollbars, the MSNZ rules are that if your car is pre 31 December 1960 who only need to meet or exceed period rollbar configuration. With the Lola I have no roll hoop and with the A40 Special a roll hoop that only comes half way up my back - both cars would look strange and out of period with roll hoops 50mm above the helmet.

Amerikiwi says that 'safety is of paramount importance today'. Why should it be any more important today than say 40 or 50 years ago? Was 'safety' a word we didn't know in the old days? Maybe in America one can get sued pretty smartly for any misdemeanor, but that is not the case here in NZ.....yet. I seem to remember signing indemnity forms absolving the promoters from any litgation bought against them. I haven't signed one of these for years, or is it taken that once you have entered an event that indemnity is automatic. Anyway when I am watching Historic Racing these days I try not to look at the bits of pipe behind the driver, put there to save his head in the unlikely event of a roll-over, and in NZ it has been very unlikely amongst the Classic brigade.

Paul, don't get me started on roll-bars. If the cars never had them when they were raced, is it mandatory that they are retro-fitted. Some, in fact most of them, no ALL of them, are hideous. I know there was a case a year or so ago concerning a Buckler that turned up, as it had raced some decades before without a roll frame, and was refused a run, and a lot of ill feeling ensued. Just take a look at the blue and white Austin Healey 100 S with the after-market hoops and you will see what I mean. The helmet thing is of course down to personal choice, and here I was not saying that we race with cloth helmets and aviator goggles, but use open faced ones purely for the 'look'. The biggest problem with the Historic Racers is the drivers right foot......as Dale Mathers keeps telling us SLOW DOWN. I will have a look at some Goodwood videos, and will also have check-up at the Roycroft festival to see who is wearing what.

The period look is fantastic but I imagine there would be huge liability issues if you made it compulsory. Making a driver wear a piece of kit that is not as safe as the 'best' choice could have huge repercussions. I suppose everyone should have the right to wear the safest kit they can find/afford. I fully agree on the aesthetic though. In a similar vein, I've seen quite a few historic cars ruined by modern roll protection...

Had a quick skim through some US vintage racing magazines,couldn't find any pics of guys wearing open face helmets but perhaps most organisers mandate full-face for liability reasons. I wouldn't wear open face any more, if you are in an open car you could get smacked in the face by debris With an old saloon there is the risk of the car folding up in a frontal impact and the driver's chin contacting the steering wheel a la Earnhardt, result - basal skull fracture. I agree about the looks of period style gear but safety is paramount rhese days.

Gee Gerald I feel honoured! Personally I love the look of "period correct" but I suspect the authorities would make it a no go. For Targa I have always used an open face, but also use a neck brace (speedway style cuff)
My own Ford 10 special has a hideously ugly rollbar, it buys a few brownie points, but even she says it's so ugly. I also use belts, very unperiod. I am using a full face for Roycroft, but only because I have yet to find a halfway decent visor which will go over the glasses and also fit the helmet. Living in the stix makes finding these things a bit hard!
Ron Roycroft apparently said "you have to have a bit of attrition", but that might mean a few of us would not be allowed out to play!
Angus wears a full face?
FWIW #1 son is now in Pomland designing the new breed of Bonnies etc!

Would really like to have oldfarts comments on this, as it is the VCC boys who I am thinking of here. Actually, in the event of a crash both styles will give the head reasonable protection, it is the neck that is the problem, and with the extra weight of a full-face, the neck is going to come in for some serious shaking. I always thought that the full-face idea was developed for the motorcross riders to stop all the shit getting thrown in their face, and then it went from there. Bike helmets are constructed a bit differently from car helmets anyway, as they are designed for a ripping or skidding action. I am sure I was born in the right generation, when we rode Triumphs and Nortons in a T shirt, shorts and jandals, and I'm still here to tell the tale!!!!!!!....Lucky ???......probably, as we used to regularly sit on 80 to 90 mph between Lincoln College and Christchurch back in 1959, 20 miles of sheer bliss; can still here the 750 Bonneville as I write this!!!!!! The modern generation of riders will never know the thrill that that sort of riding gives. Perhaps only farmers on their quad bikes get the same feeling.......I think it is called 'Shooting the Breeze'.